[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Needle's Pointy End]

Why doesn't Sansa just pull an Arya and shank Littlefinger a couple times with a sharp blade?

Sansa is going to Worship Petyr for having Joffery murdered.... lets not fool ourselves.

[boojam]

Of minor note.

First Tyrion screws around with Grand Maester Pycelle.

Then Twyin pounces on him for putting on decrepitude airs.

Now Cersei is on his case!

Time get the hell out of Dodge.

[Needle's Pointy End]

Sansa has been through a lot too so I hate when people compare her with Arya. I love Arya and I didn't really liked Sansa in the beggining but she grew a lot and I admire her strenght.

Because Sansa was a normal girl who thought Joffery was cute when the show started......... Nothing wrong with that.

[The 10th Penny King]

Of minor note.

First Tyrion screws around with Grand Maester Pycelle.

Then Twyin pounces on him for putting on decrepitude airs.

Now Cersei is on his case!

Time get the hell out of Dodge.

He should fear the Spider...not the Lion.

[Onna Lewyys]

What happened to make Cersei hate Pycelle so much anyway? Has she always been like that, or did I miss something?

[pantouflas]

As to the second argument, what would be the point in revealing that Tywin was involved now, at this point in the story?

As to the first, Tywin wouldn't even kill Tyrion, who he hated, until he seemed to be a regicide. Even Roose Bolton fears kinslaying. And if he did want to be rid of Joffrey, there were a million better ways to do it, ways that didn't squander valuable assets like Sansa.

Good points :D

[The 10th Penny King]

Seems to me the Iron Islands are problem for D&D, I think because they did not appear in SoS.

First the flapdoodle with the Asha - Yara thing...

And now what the hell is Yara/Asha's story in season 4?

I can't figure it out.

They also need the Greyjoy death reveal to close the loop on the Death of 3 Kings prophecy by MEL last season. Two is not three!

[Legion of Doom]

Who the hell was that woman hunting with Ramsay?

I forget her name, but she was one of the two women-Tansy maybe?-who were torturing Theon last season under Ramsay's direction.

[Colonel Green]

The woman hunting with Ramsay was named Myranda, one of Ramsay's assistants in cutting off Theon's wienie last year. The other girl was a new character, but was probably originally meant to be the other accomplice (whose actress got pregnant and thus couldn't return).

[iknownothingjonsnow]

What happened to make Cersei hate Pycelle so much anyway? Has she always been like that, or did I miss something?

I think that encounter was as much about the residual frustration from her conversation with Brienne than anything Pycelle specifically did. That being said, he's a doddering fool whom she's never tolerated him more than she had to (e.g. the contrast between Ros letting him go on about "the thing you need to understand about kings" and Cersei cutting him off with "I know what 10 drops will bring!") and now that Qyburn is in KL she seems apt to tolerate Pycelle even less than before.

[NoneofYourBiz]

5- Dragons over Kings Landing in summer (past vision foretelling of a present & future

It can be a vision of the future without it being a winter scene.

[HairGrowsBack]

I think that encounter was as much about the residual frustration from her conversation with Brienne than anything Pycelle specifically did. That being said, he's a doddering fool whom she's never tolerated him more than she had to (e.g. the contrast between Ros letting him go on about "the thing you need to understand about kings" and Cersei cutting him off with "I know what 10 drops will bring!") and now that Qyburn is in KL she seems apt to tolerate Pycelle even less than before.

This, and also because it's the first episode actually featuring Book Cersei we've had since "Blackwater"

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

What happened to make Cersei hate Pycelle so much anyway? Has she always been like that, or did I miss something?

I imagine being in council meetings and having to deal with him in general would make anyone despise him relatively quickly.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Sansa has been through a lot too so I hate when people compare her with Arya. I love Arya and I didn't really liked Sansa in the beggining but she grew a lot and I admire her strenght.

I would argue Arya has had it worse than Sansa. I feel like book Sansa is still in denial where as it appears show Sansa is wising up a lot quicker.

Because she is Sansa and not Arya?

I'd certainly like Sansa to become more active but there are different ways of being active and I guess this would not be her approach.

Apart from that putting a character in that kind of ambiguous situation, letting said character simmer for a while and flirt with going over to the dark side simply makes a good story.

I am not really sure if Baelish wants to kill Robin right now but I think it may happen by accident and Baelish may make use of it, morally handcuffing Sansa, or making Sansa his tool may at some point be more important than Little Lord Arryn alive.

And indeed, so far Sasa has little reason to distrust LF, she simply does not know what he did to her family. By now he is her, albeit somewhat sinister, benefactor, the man who saved her not only from a murder accusation but also from her mean aunt.

Coming back to the Arya comparison: Sansa could make use of her abilities and spy on Baelish, question people, read his letters....... whatever clever investigation could be done - if Martin wants her to become clever so soon.

Ya, I was being a little bit over the top, but as you said I would like her to become a little bit more active in her own life. She definitely can learn a lot from one of the best players in the game, but eventually I'd like to see her take some control, and if in that decision she eventually kills Littlefinger, how sweet! Again as you said, hopefully Martin has her take a little more initiative and she uses her abilities in the next books.

Edited April 15, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Sun]

It can be a vision of the future without it being a winter scene.

Not if they keep to the seasonal timeline in the books.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Sorry but this has been rehashed a million times... Olenna is never close to the wine goblet. She is sitting down at her table and the goblet is on the Kings table. There is a knight right in front of Joffery's wine goblet and Olenna would have been caught if she leaned over and plopped something in there... The only way it happened is if Margaery slipped the stone in Joffery's wine when he gave her his wine goblet so he could cut the pie...

This is absolutely not the case. After Joffrey drinks the wine that Tyrion pours him, the pie comes and Joffrey gives his goblet to Margery so he can grab his sword and cut the pigeon pie. Margery puts the goblet on the table in front of Queen of Thorns. That's where the goblet is when Joffrey cuts the pie. The next time he drinks from the goblet he dies.

See here: http://imgur.com/a/2DtPH

Edited April 15, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Chebyshov]

This is absolutely not the case. After Joffrey drinks the wine that Tyrion pours him, the pie comes and Joffrey gives his goblet to Margery so he can grab his sword and cut the pigeon pie. Margery puts the goblet on the table in front of Queen of Thorns. That's where the goblet is when Joffrey cuts the pie. The next time he drinks from the goblet he dies.

See here: http://imgur.com/a/2DtPH

Not so. Marg puts the goblet down on her table, a good few feet away from Olenna.

http://i.imgur.com/Cy29QDF.png

And when Marg takes Joff's goblet for him to cut the pie, we see that her hands are clearly empty. So it's a real head-scratcher.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Chebyshov

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Not so. Marg puts the goblet down on her table, a good few feet away from Olenna.

http://i.imgur.com/Cy29QDF.png

And when Marg takes Joff's goblet for him to cut the pie, we see that her hands are clearly empty. So it's a real head-scratcher.

I re-watched and it appears you're right about the goblet placement! The only thing I can think of now is after Olenna tinkers with Sansa's necklace you hear that drop as she is walking across the King's table. This would be an opportune time to slip the poison. If that's not the case I would think someone else must be involved.

Edited April 15, 2014 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Chebyshov]

I re-watched and it appears you're right about the goblet placement! The only thing I can think of now is after Olenna tinkers with Sansa's necklace you hear that drop as she is walking across the King's table. This would be an opportune time to slip the poison. If that's not the case I would think someone else must be involved.

I was thinking that too! But the "plink" seems to be when she's in front of Marg, and Joff dumps his wine out on Tyrion's head afterwards. It's possible it's slower moving poison (a deviation from the book), but I think it's likelier the poison goes in the cup around the time of the cake cutting. So Marg could have just done it with some good slight-of-hand, or maybe Olenna does it when the camera isn't focused on her (when he slashes the sword).

It's also possible we're completely overanalyzing...maybe there's a different shot or angle that didn't make the final edits. But yeah, just thought I'd add that screenshot to muddy the waters ;)

EDIT:

You can see Marg's hands with the goblet (as she's placing it down) are blocked by Joff for a few frames here: http://i.imgur.com/XxwPm9B.png?1

And then Marg is the one pointing Tyrion towards the cup after the cake cutting, here: http://i.imgur.com/uKhSTQs.png?1

Edited April 15, 2014 by Chebyshov

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I was thinking that too! But the "plink" seems to be when she's in front of Marg, and Joff dumps his wine out on Tyrion's head afterwards. It's possible it's slower moving poison (a deviation from the book), but I think it's likelier the poison goes in the cup around the time of the cake cutting. So Marg could have just done it with some good slight-of-hand, or maybe Olenna does it when the camera isn't focused on her (when he slashes the sword).

It's also possible we're completely overanalyzing...maybe there's a different shot or angle that didn't make the final edits. But yeah, just thought I'd add that screenshot to muddy the waters ;)

EDIT:

You can see Marg's hands with the goblet (as she's placing it down) are blocked by Joff for a few frames here: http://i.imgur.com/XxwPm9B.png?1

And then Marg is the one pointing Tyrion towards the cup after the cake cutting, here: http://i.imgur.com/uKhSTQs.png?1

Very interesting. Well if Marg is the one then I'm thinking we'll find out when she talks with her grandmother next episode. Or maybe they'll just talk about it in general terms and make us crazy.