[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Moët]

My bad, I rewatched it and just noticed the tail. The screech is mixed into the crow caws so I got confused. I guess it's D&D being "We SWEAR she'll eventually get to Westeros!!!"

To be honest, I think it's both raven and dragon. Go back and do a frame-by-frame...

Keep in mind that we're looking at Bran's vision. There's a frame near the beginning of the flight over KL that shows the shadow of the wings that you can see space between feathers, then it changes to solid with the dragon tail. To me it felt like it was from Bran's POV, as if he was flying over KL as the three-eyed raven, then as a dragon.

[VladimirDulud]

If Margaery didn't know that would just be.. stupid. They've both been planning this for a while, and like you said, Olenna would never risk poisoning the wine without Margaery knowing. I think she's just pissed that it's taking so long for her to get her crown.

I agree. I like the ambiguity of the Tyrells - they're fun to decipher; but it would seem more plausible for Margaery to have been clued in. Seems too risky, from a practical perspective, for her not to know. If she doesn't, there had better be some genius plan we're made privy to.

[BlueDragon]

I wondered about that too

Except that it looked absolutely NOTHING like Sansa's necklace. I am sure we will know when it is important for everyone to know, but what is obvious is that Tyrion did not do it as he could not have controlled. Tyrion is wrong to think he was set up, in my opinion. At least in the sense that Lady Olena could not possibly know that Joffrey was going to put Tyrion at the center of that scene.

Even more importantly, Olena could not have know at what point the chance would come for her to drop that jewel into the right cup.

Neither does Tywin like the entertainment in the least a some have suggested. Anything which make his family look ridiculous would have never won his approval.

Joffrey's excess of sadism and impatience seems to be the result of performance anxiety.

[RoamingRonin]

I just noticed Tywin told Oberyn "Please send him my regards" to Doran. Very clever reference.

In the "Previously On..." segment: they show Talisa and Robb dying but not Cat.

Edited April 16, 2014 by RoamingRonin

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

About if Margaery knew or not, In the preview for 4x03 she says "but I would have been the Queen!" which seems to imply that she has no idea of Olenna's plotting. But maybe that's just weird out of context

isn't she queen already cause they said the vows?

[Jinjonator]

isn't she queen already cause they said the vows?

The marriage wasn't consummated.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

The marriage wasn't consummated.

ahh yeah.

[boojam]

The marriage wasn't consummated.

In this world Elisabeth I became queen and never married.

Catherine the Great did marry Peter III but that guy was probably so mentally impaired that marriage was probably never consummated. Catherine went from Empress Consort to Empress in 6 months. Her illegitimate son Paul succeeded her.

(Westeros does not even have rules of succession like that! Apparently?)

We get some sketchy ideas of what the laws of succession are in Westeros , but George gives no details.

I am not even sure in this Earth world we live in that consummation is a rule for succession.

Edited April 16, 2014 by boojam

[Jinjonator]

Well... I wasn't talking about Earth. I was talking about Westeros, so Elizabeth I isn't really relevant. And as far as I've gathered from the books and the show, consummation is very critical.

At any rate, Marg confirms in the promo that Joff's death inhibits her being queen, sooooo...

[jet199]

Twyin's "Have her [shae] brought to the Tower of the Hand", plus the look he gave, reminded me of the "Wash her and bring her to my bed" motto of Aegon IV.

I hope the show brings out Tywin's hypocrisy clearly. Among readers there are still those who say "but Tywin would never sleep with Shae, he hated whores and loved Joanna" or "I don't think Tywin ordered Elia's death out of spite because everything we know about Tywin shows us that he acts without passion" completely missing the fact that Tywin is a raging ball of anger and lust and his extreme cold, "bloodless" persona is to cover up his inner demons and protect him from being used like his father was.

[TheonsPhantomCock]

Cutting from Theon to a sausage is just wrong.

OMG! I completely missed that (and I shouldn't considering my avatar and username), but yeah, that's brilliant.... haha!

[Spotted Cat]

Twyin's "Have her [shae] brought to the Tower of the Hand", plus the look he gave, reminded me of the "Wash her and bring her to my bed" motto of Aegon IV.

I hope the show brings out Tywin's hypocrisy clearly. Among readers there are still those who say "but Tywin would never sleep with Shae, he hated whores and loved Joanna" or "I don't think Tywin ordered Elia's death out of spite because everything we know about Tywin shows us that he acts without passion" completely missing the fact that Tywin is a raging ball of anger and lust and his extreme cold, "bloodless" persona is to cover up his inner demons and protect him from being used like his father was.

agreed

but the breakup scene with tyrion and shae would go a long way to justify shaes behavior later. like they say "hell hath no fury etc"

why did he have to breakup with her. just put a bag over her head and toss her in a ship to pentos. DONE.

lord tywin is not what his mask shows. he is quite capable of passionate acts. but the order of elia's murder is not so much an act of passion but a rational (and horrible) act.

[boojam]

Well... I wasn't talking about Earth. I was talking about Westeros, so Elizabeth I isn't really relevant. And as far as I've gathered from the books and the show, consummation is very critical.

[\quote]

I don't know what Geroge's rules are for his world.

That a male has to be regent was true I believe in France too, Catherine de' Medici, when her husband Francis I got killed , stupidly in a joust!, became 'Queen Mother' of her son Francis II, tho she was essentially Queen Regent.

When Francis II died, she did become Queen Regent to her 10 year old son Charles IX , then was , for some while, a very powerful Queen Regent (essentially the only French queen).

I don't know if that's in the book.

But I guess Westeros is more like France , no female rulers, GRRM seems to imply that.

No Catherine the Great who became empresses and the hell with laws of succession!

The laws must have been kind of weird in Russia at that time.

[TheonsPhantomCock]

That was pretty cool, actually, especially the way the dwarf actors were attired like the kings. Oh, and Sansa's death glare was a thing of beauty.

Did no-one else notice the little jokes (not the dwarves themselves, I mean), but the little things like the Joffrey dwarf having a lion's head with antlers, the Stannis dwarf getting shot and then exploding with green wildfire (he's also "riding" Melisandre), the reference to the Drowning God in the Balon Greyjoy dwarf screaming "I'm drowning" and best of all, the Renly dwarf who gets hit on his bare a**e by Stannis.(wearing a red heart on his armour) who is saying to Renly "Are you liking it?" and Renly is riding what can only be Loras (blonde curly hair)!!!

Fascinating seeing everyone's reactions too. Oberyn quietly, unsmiling, just observing, Pycelle clapping, Varys - unamused with his eyes shut, Sansa staring into space, Tommen laughing and then seeing Tyrion and immediately stopping, Tyrion and Cersei enjoying it, the Tyrells completely unamused, Loras storming off, Joffrey giggling like a child..... it was brilliant!

[Castel]

agreed

but the breakup scene with tyrion and shae would go a long way to justify shaes behavior later. like they say "hell hath no fury etc"

why did he have to breakup with her. just put a bag over her head and toss her in a ship to pentos. DONE.

lord tywin is not what his mask shows. he is quite capable of passionate acts. but the order of elia's murder is not so much an act of passion but a rational (and horrible) act.

Murdering the kids made sense.Murdering Elia was either spiteful or a mistake.

[TheonsPhantomCock]

yes, QoT could have done something, but the way they are framing the scene they are making it appear that it can only be him even though the two times he filled the goblet everyone was watching him.

no, we all don't know it's not Tyrion...some people do, some don't. People watching the show who have never read the books may not have any clue there could be someone other than Tyrion - especially since (as things stand right now) there were no gems mising from Sansa's necklace.

There is a gem missing. Watch QOT's right hand. She touches Sansa's braids and then the necklace. In the next shot, it looks like a stone is missing on Sansa's left side.

Then the QOT makes a funny movement with her right arm (you can see her elbow go back) as she passes Joffrey's table and you can actually hear a little "clink" as something gets dropped into a cup.

[boojam]

I can't find my damn post so I will put this up again.

Hollywood Reporter:It's a mystery who killed Joffrey. If they look closer at this scene, will viewers be able to figure out who's responsible for the poisoning?

Alex Graves:" I tried to shoot it and then edit in such a way that so that if they reveal later in the season who did it, it makes sense. If you watch what's going on, where the killer is and when, you'll go, "Oh, it's happening and progressing visually." It's not like you see it happen, because of the way he dies, but you will notice the movements and the adjustments."

This is interesting since GRRM wrote the scene and Alex Graves directed it, I think I read that Graves and Martin talked about the sequence (over the phone , I guess).

Does this imply that George gave us more evidence about the mystery than is in the book?

Edited April 16, 2014 by boojam

[KeeperOfOaths]

I don't believe the love she has for Jaime in the books is the same love she has for Renly; with Jaime it is almost like a sibling thing, like a brother. They've been through a lot together; it is, for lack of a better comparison, a love between men who fight together, like what Robert and Ned had-brothers bound by war and hardship. The love she has for Jaime isn't the same as what she felt for Renly. I mean if that's your point I guess I see that slightly but still her honor to Cat is the main reason she heads out and she feels like she owes Jaime as well. That wasn't what Cersei meant tonight when she asked her, and her response didn't indicate that either, so it's just likely, knowing how the show operates, that they will try to make that the main motivation.

OMG, really??? It is the complete other way around.

What Brienne feels for Renly is just a young girl´s crush. A crush that does not have a strong fundament. He treated her with kindness, he valued her as a fighter and he was not so prejudiced so that he won´t give her an opportunity to fight just because she was a woman. But he didn´t care about her, and there was no actual connection there. Brienne fell in love with a fantasy, really. Just because she is also a woman not only a warrior, and she does have feelings and nobody has treated her with kindness and respect.

What Brienne feels for Jaime is totally different. It is real love. Born out of respect, and admiration, and a deep understanding. Forged out of extreme experiences and a very strong connection. Jaime is not just a man who treats her with kindness (at the end of their relationship) and appreciates her as a fighter. He is a man who rescued her, twice, who defended her, who actually proved that he does care for her and for her well-being, who entrusted her with his honour, showing that he values her not only as a fighter but also as a woman of honour. With whom she shares values, even if she is still innocent while he has become a cynic due to his life experiences; when he was young he dreamed after all of great deeds of courage, of being a knight in shining armour with heroic adventures. And who she actually knows, with good parts and bad parts, she trusts and she likes.

So, you may ignore what it is actually happening in the books (she remarking how good he looks in the Oathkeeper scene, she constantly thinking of Jaime, she dreaming of Renly-the man you say she loved so deeply- and then Renly turning into Jaime over and over again, she thinking if Jaime would comfort her is she gave up her quest and return to him without Sansa and actually thinking that this is what men –Jaime- may want; a dame in distress to contort, she saying his name over and over again when she is injured etc.), but from this to actually turn it the other way around and say that Brienne cares about Jaime just like a sister –other than Cercei J - would care for her brother while her feelings for Renly were Looove, it is a huge difference. And not at all backed up by the books.

On the contrary. The books point to the exact opposite. So I am very happy that the show goes into this direction, as well.

[jet199]

That's were Marg places it, yet when Tyrion picks it up , from the camera angle it seems closer to Olenna than where it was put down.

That might be a continuity error.

Or maybe in the pigeon hooha it got moved.

I notice oddly that before Sansa hands the cup to Tyrion her left hand passes over the top of the cup.

Then Marg handles the cup and we really can't see where her hands are all the time.

(Now I don't think Sansa dropped the crystal in the cup, but it's odd.)

Just saying.

It's just the camera angle which makes it look like the cup if in front of Olenna. The camera is taking a shot on a diagonal from in going from the cup, on the corner of Joff's table, across to the other table where Olenna is sitting. The perspective in the shot also gives it away. The cup is very big in the foreground with Olenna small in the background, this shows she is a few yards away. If the cup had been in front of her on her table it would have appeared smaller on screen. Maybe someone who is good with that sort of thing can draw a diagram of the camera's line of sight.

This isn't a continuity error, they have purposely chosen these camera angles to make it look like the cup next to Olenna when it wasn't. This trick worked really well and they also used distraction to draw away people attention when Marg puts the cup down so people miss where she has put it. They have put a lot of work into making it seem like the the cup was with Olenna on a casual viewing but nowhere near her on closer inspection. They want there to be a double meaning.

I think this is because we are still going to get the QOT did it reveal from LF so they need people to think she had the opportunity but there will be a second reveal, maybe in the next book, that the poisoner was someone else. LF could not really know who actually put the poison in the cup as he was not there and there has always been scepticism about Olenna putting the poison in the cup as she is too short to reach it and others have more opportunity.

So our suspects in order of probability are Marg, Sansa or Tyrion (or the poison was in the pie but I wont complicate things with that theory).

Marg has the best access to the cup. If it is Marg the it is not a good plan because if Tyrion had not reacted to Joff then Marg would have been the only one with access to the cup and you know that Cersei wants rid of Marg as much as Tyrion. Unless everyone had bought the choking lie then Marg would've been a dead woman. There is also a big risk that Joff could have asked Marg to take a slip after she had put the poision in but it also works the other way in that once she puts the poison in the cup she knows to stop drinking and doesn't need a secret signal from anyone. The Tyrells bleating about it being terrible because Marg was drinking from the same cup could be to cover the fact she did it.

If it is Marg then it could be revealed in the next book, in or around her trial. I imagine Cersei could be gloating about Marg's honour being lost and Marg throwing back at her "Oh, I forgot to mention, I killed your son. I win".

Sansa has motive and opportunity however I think I saw Tyrion looking into the cup after Sansa gives it to him. This would mean if Sansa did it then Tyrion knows and let it happen. This would/might be a change from the books but not too big a change because Tyrion certainly suspects Sansa and his defence is partly hampered by the fact that he thinks she had good reasons for wanting Joffrey dead and so wont blame her.

Olenna could have put the jewel into Sansa's hand after taking it from her necklace. There are a few frames where Sansa and Olenna are talking but their hands are out of view. Olenna's words about coming to Highgarden could be hints that Sansa has a chance to leave Tyrion and the Tyrells will help her. Sansa could work out the jewel is poison on her own. However this theory works better if the original target for the poison was Tyrion whose death would free Sansa to marry again (also he is known for his love of wine and sitting right next to Sansa) but Sansa took the opportunity to kill Joffrey instead.

This theory is crackpot as it relies on Sansa's dodgy memory but if we get her talking about the un-kiss on the show then it is a possibility that her memory problems will have a real purpose in the plot. Sansa's POV chapter after the PW is weird, she laughs when she is told she has a good heart, she knows the gem was used in the murder, but not how, when it really shouldn't even occur to her, she outright accuses Dontos of murder. Why doesn't she just assume the amethyst was loose and fell out? It could be this chapter is weird because Sansa is re-writing her memories as the chapter progresses.

Tyrion has motive and it is also possible that Olenna gave him the jewel when the hands were hidden. Tyrion picks up the cup like he knows something is wrong with it and Joffrey points to him. The problem is that books Tyrion's POV makes not mention of poisoning Joff (except maybe once later) or taking the poison from Olenna. However Tyrion often plots and schemes silently in his POVs. In ADWD he finds out young Griff's ID silently, we have him "educating" Aegon, which we think is him being helpful, only to get a "he took the bait" thought from Tyrion after we find out Aegon has followed his advice. Then we get his escape from slavery and, although it is clear what is happening, he never once thinks about his plan or that they are trying to escape, he just does it. So there is a very slight chance that Tyrion could have poisoned Joff.

One more count against Tyrion is that he and LF are the only two characters to have actually "confessed" to killing Joffery in the books.

[Koi No Yokan]

For those who haven't seen it, a nice little reaction from Aimee Richardson (Myrcella):

https://vine.co/v/MJp2KxmPei1