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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion


Ran
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About the poisoning and who did what. Has anyone thought that Olena takes the poison from the necklace and gives it to Margeary. Tells Margeary that this "medicine" will calm him down or something along those lines? That would help explain how the poison got into the cup when Olena was so far away.

Or, Olena dropped it in as she walked by, knowing that Margeary would not drink from the royal chalice. You notice only the King has a chalice, all else are using regular glasses.

Either one can explain it, and it seems from the next trailer that Margeary didn't know.

I still think this is a bit of a stretch, because Margeary had to know exactly what was going to happen so as to not put her own life at risk. Honestly, I think that promo for the next episode is a little misleading. I bet the QOT and Margeary will just talk about Joffrey's death in general terms in order to keep the mystery alive until Littlefinger talks to Sansa.

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About the poisoning and who did what. Has anyone thought that Olena takes the poison from the necklace and gives it to Margeary. Tells Margeary that this "medicine" will calm him down or something along those lines? That would help explain how the poison got into the cup when Olena was so far away.

Or, Olena dropped it in as she walked by, knowing that Margeary would not drink from the royal chalice. You notice only the King has a chalice, all else are using regular glasses.

Either one can explain it, and it seems from the next trailer that Margeary didn't know.

and there is a prob too

we see mace tyrell presenting the king with that big chalice , but he doesn't use it in the ceremony. One of the key points that mace tyrell would raise in the following scene is " my daughter drank from the same cup". does this mean that tyrells are off the hook for poisoning?

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Honestly, if they let the audience in on why she betrayed Tyrion I think it will be more likely that she did it out of spite or because she was forced to. The latter would make the murder more controversial.

I would prefer the Sansa thing just because it would give her some sort of "backbone" again. Crying Shae of last episodes made her look so desperatly dependend, which is very different from the Shae I have in mind, when I think about the books but also early ShowShae. Her being forced into betraying Tyrion would make her look even more like the crying little girl and I would rather like to see a little bit more of the manipulative whore again than the scared girl.

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I would prefer the Sansa thing just because it would give her some sort of "backbone" again. Crying Shae of last episodes made her look so desperatly dependend, which is very different from the Shae I have in mind, when I think about the books but also early ShowShae. Her being forced into betraying Tyrion would make her look even more like the crying little girl and I would rather like to see a little bit more of the manipulative whore again than the scared girl.

Oh I definitely prefer manipulative whore over cry baby whore, but I'd rather her intentions be unworthy instead of chivalrous.

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I strongly suspect that Margery put the poisoned stone in the cup. She is ambivalent about what she has done which is the reason for her conversation with Olena during which she says, "I would have been Queen." The answer to that dilemma is to have Olena and her son broker a deal for a marriage to Tommen.



This incenses Cersei because Margary is getting a second bite at her sons and this one is the only one left, one she could have easily influenced and directed, unlike Joffrey.



I like Tommen in every way, so the fact that he must die eventually is quite distasteful.



Maybe Jamie rescues him in some way.


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I would prefer the Sansa thing just because it would give her some sort of "backbone" again. Crying Shae of last episodes made her look so desperatly dependend, which is very different from the Shae I have in mind, when I think about the books but also early ShowShae. Her being forced into betraying Tyrion would make her look even more like the crying little girl and I would rather like to see a little bit more of the manipulative whore again than the scared girl.

I'm getting to the point where, whatever they do with ShowShae, the less she is seen, the better. Hopefully that means, she'll be held as a surprise, surprise at the trial. Cut to...........lying in a bed, a few lines of dialogue, and then I suspect....someone with the last name Lannister will kill her.

All in all, whatever has become of Shae in and after episode 2, I have my fingers crossed that she shan't be needed until the trial. It'll be nice to see some Peter Dinklage scenes without her, for a damn change. I've noticed that whoever Tyrion does scenes with in an episode, it seems that they must counter it with a scene of him and Shae, the yawningly great love of his life. I'm not one who has totally hated ShowShae, either, but her scenes really are starting to grow stale. I'm looking forward to some Shae-free tv. ~fingers crossed~

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream
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I'm pretty curious to see how they resolve the Tyrion/Tywin/Shae/Bronn thing. I'm guessing Tywin paid Bronn to lie to Tyrion about it.



I sincerely hope that Tyrion doesn't swear off their "friendship" as a result, or that Bronn doesn't run off with Jaime to protect the other Lannister brother out of guilt (talk about butchering a character/relationship).



And while this doesn't hang together, it's a little bit interesting that Bronn "found" Shae and introduced her to Tyrion in Tywin's camp soon after Tywin met Bronn for the first time. If Tywin had been pulling the strings this whole time you'd have to think he would have done something useful with the situation by now.


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I strongly suspect that Margery put the poisoned stone in the cup. She is ambivalent about what she has done which is the reason for her conversation with Olena during which she says, "I would have been Queen." The answer to that dilemma is to have Olena and her son broker a deal for a marriage to Tommen.

I agree. I think Margaery was a participant, but a somewhat reluctant one.

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I agree. I think Margaery was a participant, but a somewhat reluctant one.

I think this is it. From all the previous scenes with Olenna and Margaery, we've seen that Olenna is extremely wilfull, quick to act or talk, and Margaery is always trying to reign it in and is more careful/courteous. It's the same here, I think, where Olenna is all like ok this kid sucks let's kill him and Marg thinks...Isn't that a bit drastic and risky? It's the Tyrell Spectrum, the oaf without a clue Mace, the level-headed, pragmatic Marg, and the too-clever and dangerous Olenna.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips
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I agree. I think Margaery was a participant, but a somewhat reluctant one.

This is what I was thinking too, and that she did the physical poisoning, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phJb60y5wlE

skip to 3:26 "Margery genuinely doesn't realize what's happening when Joffrey starts to show signs of being uncomfortable." That, coupled with the line from the promo is now making me think it was all Olenna, which is sad, because I like the idea of Marg being in on it.

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I'm pretty curious to see how they resolve the Tyrion/Tywin/Shae/Bronn thing. I'm guessing Tywin paid Bronn to lie to Tyrion about it.

I sincerely hope that Tyrion doesn't swear off their "friendship" as a result, or that Bronn doesn't run off with Jaime to protect the other Lannister brother out of guilt (talk about butchering a character/relationship).

And while this doesn't hang together, it's a little bit interesting that Bronn "found" Shae and introduced her to Tyrion in Tywin's camp soon after Tywin met Bronn for the first time. If Tywin had been pulling the strings this whole time you'd have to think he would have done something useful with the situation by now.

I used to think, bookwise, that it might have mattered that Bronn is the one who found Shae and the how and the when and where, but with both her and Tywin dead, now I'm not so sure. Yes, I suppose technically it could still come up if Bronn or someone else in the know explains things to Tyrion on a return to Westeros, but I do doubt it, so far.

As far as the show and Bronn and Shae and this idea of betrayal, I'm not so sure that I think Bronn has as of now, or will, turn on Tyrion. I also never considered it a betrayal in the books. It was totally unreasonable for Tyrion, or anyone for that matter, to expect Bronn to die for Tyrion in a fight with The Mountain. It's not the same situation as the one in the Vale, and Bronn was right, he shouldn't have to DIE for Tyrion, that's a bit a much. Now, in the books, yes Bronn took the marriage deal from Cersei, but he took the deal for the bride and whatever else for something that he'd already decided, not to fight the Mountain for Tyrion. It was too iffy of a gamble for him, and I don't blame him, and book Tyrion didn't either. If Cersei was dumb enough to give him something, that's her own damn fault, although.....she was also dumb enough to try and take it away from Bronn again. Now, I'm not sure the Lollys situation will be played out in the show (it could, in some respect, eventually), but still, as of now, I don't think Bronn has betrayed Tyrion in the show, and I'm thinking that if anything, a somewhat working relationship with Jaime will keep Bronn around without betraying Tyrion on the show, too. I suppose TV audiences are used to Bronn getting Tyrion out of trouble, but I'm not one who is sold on the idea of Bronn betraying him, even in the show. I suspect Bronn and the Crownlands, and his stepson Tyrion.......might play a part in later novels.

Edited by Lady Fevre Dream
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This is what I was thinking too, and that she did the physical poisoning, but

skip to 3:26 "Margery genuinely doesn't realize what's happening when Joffrey starts to show signs of being uncomfortable." That, coupled with the line from the promo is now making me think it was all Olenna, which is sad, because I like the idea of Marg being in on it.

Well, Margaery has proven herself to be quite a good actress already. And I'm thinking her attitude toward the whole thing, including in that scene in the promo, is probably like, "All right, fine, Grandma, but this better work." Edited by Onna Lewyys
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I just love thinking back on that wonderful scene in which Olenna and Margaery sit down with Sansa to find out the truth about Joffrey. I like to think that Olenna decided his fate right then and there.


Edited by Floop
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I'm having such a hard time figuring out what their angle is with ShowShae. In the book, I read her as aware of her place, maybe willing to push the envelope a bit but overall just a person who knew her place and cared about Tyrion as she would a rich guy who obviously takes care of her. I liked the ending of the book because I felt it was a dark turn for Tyrion as there was ambiguity as to why she may have betrayed him. Just knowing in my head that she might have been forced by Tywin made the death darker for me and it that the moment was just rage with Tyrion.



I feel like with ShowShae everyone's going to immediately assume she betrayed him due to anger which takes some of that ambiguity away and makes the killing more about tortured Tyrion rather than wrathful, vengeful Tyrion. I don't know how much of that is the writing, how much of that is the characters and how much of that is the fact that Dinklage has such charisma and vulnerability that you instinctively want to believe the best. I know that people who just watch the show hate Shae for the same reason they dislike Sansa. They view her as being stupid and not appreciating her situation.



I believe Marg had to be in on it but maybe is having some doubts now that she realizes that Cersei is Queen Regent again, or she's just doing with QofT told her in the first episode. Being careful of what you say, even around me.



I believe that Varys may want to help Shae if for no reason other than they are both foreigners. I also think that Varys is invested in keeping the Lannisters in power for as long as possible as he views them as the best people to have as the reigning king/queen with Danys comes to town. The Tyrell's would probably be adored and that would mean no one would be as willing to jump into a war with a supposed lost prince. Let the Lannisters destroy the country with their madness and vengeance and people will flock to Aegon's side when he comes.


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