[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I'm having such a hard time figuring out what their angle is with ShowShae. In the book, I read her as aware of her place, maybe willing to push the envelope a bit but overall just a person who knew her place and cared about Tyrion as she would a rich guy who obviously takes care of her. I liked the ending of the book because I felt it was a dark turn for Tyrion as there was ambiguity as to why she may have betrayed him. Just knowing in my head that she might have been forced by Tywin made the death darker for me and it that the moment was just rage with Tyrion.

I feel like with ShowShae everyone's going to immediately assume she betrayed him due to anger which takes some of that ambiguity away and makes the killing more about tortured Tyrion rather than wrathful, vengeful Tyrion. I don't know how much of that is the writing, how much of that is the characters and how much of that is the fact that Dinklage has such charisma and vulnerability that you instinctively want to believe the best. I know that people who just watch the show hate Shae for the same reason they dislike Sansa. They view her as being stupid and not appreciating her situation.

I believe Marg had to be in on it but maybe is having some doubts now that she realizes that Cersei is Queen Regent again, or she's just doing with QofT told her in the first episode. Being careful of what you say, even around me.

I believe that Varys may want to help Shae if for no reason other than they are both foreigners. I also think that Varys is invested in keeping the Lannisters in power for as long as possible as he views them as the best people to have as the reigning king/queen with Danys comes to town. The Tyrell's would probably be adored and that would mean no one would be as willing to jump into a war with a supposed lost prince. Let the Lannisters destroy the country with their madness and vengeance and people will flock to Aegon's side when he comes.

I've seen this a number of times and really don't get it. You think that Olenna is carelessly confessing their shared crime out in the open while Margaery plays coy? That that seems more likely than: you guys are making baseless assumptions by completely misinterpreting 2 out-of-context sentences from a trailer (because that never happens around here...)??

Edited April 16, 2014 by iknownothingjonsnow

[BlueDragon]

I've seen this a number of times and really don't get it. You think that Olenna is carelessly confessing their shared crime out in the open while Margaery plays coy? That that seems more likely than: you guys are making baseless assumptions by completely misinterpreting 2 out-of-context sentences from a trailer (because that never happens around here...)??

Olenna says 'you are better off' -- as in anything but being married to that psychopath is my choice for you.

Marg is decrying her almost queen status.

Neither of them are necessarily giving away anything in that conversation so far no matter where they are speaking.

[Natalie Underfoot]

I've seen this a number of times and really don't get it. You think that Olenna is carelessly confessing their shared crime out in the open while Margaery plays coy? That that seems more likely than: you guys are making baseless assumptions by completely misinterpreting 2 out-of-context sentences from a trailer (because that never happens around here...)??

I'm just going with what I was given and since that's not a scene that goes in the book I don't feel like there's anything wrong with wondering what it is, sure it could be edited out of context, but even if it is, obviously they want to imply that that's the conversation that happened.

. I never said Olenna confessed her crime, at most she said it's not the worst thing that Joff died. I'm addressing the fact that Marg seems to be upset that it went down and that doesn't sit with my belief that she knew so I'm giving two possible explanations why she might be reacting like that.

[BlueDragon]

I'm just going with what I was given and since that's not a scene that goes in the book I don't feel like there's anything wrong with wondering what it is, sure it could be edited out of context, but even if it is, obviously they want to imply that that's the conversation that happened.

. I never said Olenna confessed her crime, at most she said it's not the worst thing that Joff died. I'm addressing the fact that Marg seems to be upset that it went down and that doesn't sit with my belief that she knew so I'm giving two possible explanations why she might be reacting like that.

She MUST act upset. And even if she knew, the gruesome nature of the poisoning would surely have been hard for her to watch. She isn't a psychopath although she is neither a virgin nor innocent.

Better for her to gasp with horror and turn away than the alternatives. She couldn't have pulled off grief that the love of her life was dying in this way.

We are all speculating, but some speculations seem reasonable and logical while others seem off base.

Making Marg seem truly disappointed keeps the unsullied from wondering if she was responsible.

I don't think Marg would kill without some misgivings even if she isn't as pure and innocent as Sansa was at the beginning of the story.

By the way, I loved the dead sparrow necklace line. If she wasn't frightened about what might happen with Joffrey, she isn't as smart as she appears. I think she genuinely liked Renly although I have no illusions that she had affection for him.

Like Cersei, Marg might be counting on her brother to save her from her husband. That is not a wise assumption.

[Lord of Winterhell]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere, but there are two things I don't get:

1. What's the point of Sansa's necklace (hairnet in the books)? After reading books I wasn't sure, but after reading some threads here I guess some part of hairnet (one jewel in the show) was used to poison Joffrey. Whoever poisoned him, why would he do it in such a complicated manner? To make it work, killer would need to a) make sure that Sansa wears necklace (don't remember who she got hairnet from in the books), b) get close to Sansa and take some part from it without her noticing it before c) it was the right time to put it in Joffeys wine.

Why wouldn't the killer simply take some poison in whatever he can in his own cloths? Doesn't make any sense to me. I guess I am just missing something, so somebody smart please explain.

2. I guess that Olenna is the main suspect, but even after slow rewatch I don't see any chance for her to poison that wine. Marg gets the cup from Joff when he goes to kill some doves, then puts in on central table (where only royal couple sits), and later Tyrion takes it back. Olenna sits at least 3-4 meters from the cup, and only stands for couple of seconds to cheer Joffrey after he cuts the pie. There's like 0% chance she could walk to the next table and spill something in Joffreys cup unnoticed.

[BlueDragon]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere, but there are two things I don't get:

1. What's the point of Sansa's necklace (hairnet in the books)? After reading books I wasn't sure, but after reading some threads here I guess some part of hairnet (one jewel in the show) was used to poison Joffrey. Whoever poisoned him, why would he do it in such a complicated manner? To make it work, killer would need to a) make sure that Sansa wears necklace (don't remember who she got hairnet from in the books), B) get close to Sansa and take some part from it without her noticing it before c) it was the right time to put it in Joffeys wine.

Why wouldn't the killer simply take some poison in whatever he can in his own cloths? Doesn't make any sense to me. I guess I am just missing something, so somebody smart please explain.

2. I guess that Olenna is the main suspect, but even after slow rewatch I don't see any chance for her to poison that wine. Marg gets the cup from Joff when he goes to kill some doves, then puts in on central table (where only royal couple sits), and later Tyrion takes it back. Olenna sits at least 3-4 meters from the cup, and only stands for couple of seconds to cheer Joffrey after he cuts the pie. There's like 0% chance she could walk to the next table and spill something in Joffreys cup unnoticed.

Olenna is too far from cup. You are right. But not 3-4 meters!!! She is maybe six feet from cup. My theory is that she passes jewel to Marg.

The assumption is that carrying poison on your person at such an event would be very, very dangerous should you be caught. Something would need to be slipped in at the last minute because there are always food/wine tasters around for royalty.

Dontos gives her the hairnet, but it is given in such a way that she can't refuse to wear it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by BlueDragon

[Hiram McDrogon]

The assumption is that carrying poison on your person at such an event would be very, very dangerous should you be caught. Something would need to be slipped in at the last minute because there are always food/wine tasters around for royalty.

Dontos gives her the hairnet, but it is given in such a way that she can't refuse to wear it.

Plus there's a strong possibility that the hairnet was intended to point the blame at Sansa after the event, but Littlefinger betrayed the Tyrells by getting Sansa out of there. I assume the books still have more to reveal about what happened at the wedding.

On the necklace: that was to be honest a little weak in the TV show - in the books, Olenna could be quite sure that Sansa was going to wear the hairnet, but in the show there wasn't much of a reason for Sansa to wear the necklace to that specific event. Of course, if Dontos had said "You must wear it to the wedding! You must wear it to the wedding!", that would have been an obvious giveaway that something was up.

[The Taxman]

You really can't fault the show directors for this portion of the books. This was just bad writing in the books from GRRM. Again, even when LF was explaining to Sansa what went down I was still mighty confused. Imagine the unsullied.

[Moët]

Joffrey's death was done terribly bad. Nothing from Cersei.. It's like she didn't even give a shit! he should have been surrounded by people trying to save him... I hate HBO so much.

I guess you not only didn't watch the preview for ep 3, but also forgot this season has more eps to come.... And the fact the last frame of this ep was dead Joffrey, leaving everything that happens next (everyone's reactions and the aftermath) coming up in ep 3.. crazy, I know.

One of the few times Lena Headey's acting didn't cut it.

And when she's stellar in the first scene this coming Sunday, because the reaction you're complaining about hasn't been aired yet because the ep cut off in the middle of the action, so we could relish dead Joffrey, what then? Edited April 17, 2014 by Moët

[boojam]

I can't find my damn post so I will put this up again.

Hollywood Reporter:It's a mystery who killed Joffrey. If they look closer at this scene, will viewers be able to figure out who's responsible for the poisoning?

Alex Graves:" I tried to shoot it and then edit in such a way that so that if they reveal later in the season who did it, it makes sense. If you watch what's going on, where the killer is and when, you'll go, "Oh, it's happening and progressing visually." It's not like you see it happen, because of the way he dies, but you will notice the movements and the adjustments."

This is interesting since GRRM wrote the scene and Alex Graves directed it, I think I read that Graves and Martin talked about the sequence (over the phone , I guess).

Does this imply that George gave us more evidence about the mystery than is in the book?

Just to put it up again.

The mystery started way back with the publication of Storm of Swords.

Almost flame wars broke out over just the prose description.

It is interesting what Alex Graves says the solution is visual clues.

So GRRM , who wrote this episode, sets up the same sequence , tho a bit condensed.

I past this from Wikipedia:

"It is commonly suggested that sleight of hand works because "the hand is quicker than the eye" but this is usually not the case. In addition to manual dexterity, sleight of hand depends on the use of psychology, timing, misdirection, and natural choreography in accomplishing a magical effect. Misdirection is perhaps the most important component of the art of sleight of hand. The magician choreographs his actions so that all spectators are likely to look where he or she wants them to. More importantly, they do not look where the performer does not wish them to look. Two types of misdirection are timing and movement. Timing is simple: by allowing a small amount of time to pass after an action, events are skewed in the viewer's mind. Movement is a little more complicated. A phrase often used is "A larger action covers a smaller action.""

This may be the solution, no I have not figured it , but apparently what George had on the page was elaborated on the screen.

Some, I am sure have thought of this, but all the obvious clues may not be the ones that solve the puzzle.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I just love thinking back on that wonderful scene in which Olenna and Margaery sit down with Sansa to find out the truth about Joffrey. I like to think that Olenna decided his fate right then and there.

Couldn't agree more with you. When Sansa is done explaining how horrible Joffrey is I believe Olenna says "What a pity." I always read that as, oh what a pity we'll have to kill him then. Olenna is quite the badass.

[rmholt]

Good points, though Sansa's "dodgy memory" is about events months after they occur, not while it's happening, so I'd assume her innocence. In the books it is fairly likely to be Willas or his wife that did the physical poisoning (Book!Olenna is too short to slip something into the chalice without it being noticeable), but in the show, if it's not Olenna who actually did it, it has to be Marg. Obviously it was Olenna's plan, but I'm really confused by Margery's line in the 4x03 promo, so we'll probably have to wait until then to get some closure.

I really hope we'll see her. It'd be funny if her vine reaction was actually meant to be foreshadow the Queenmaker plot. But given how much Arya and Bran are aging, I don't see any reason to exclude Myrcella because of appearance. And I rather like Aimee in the role.

I'm assuming a lot of Dorne may be on the chopping block for next season, but what happens to Myrcella seems fairly important.

Little known fact: Olenna was a point guard for the Arbor team. The clinks are dinnerware. She had a good crossover but Loras' was better. She had the outside set shot.

For Marg to be queen the Tyrells have count on Tywin not rethinking the alliance. Someone could get a little apprehensive while things are playing out, or TV folk might benefit from an explanation.

[rmholt]

I guess you not only didn't watch the preview for ep 3, but also forgot this season has more eps to come.... And the fact the last frame of this ep was dead Joffrey, leaving everything that happens next (everyone's reactions and the aftermath) coming up in ep 3.. crazy, I know.

And when she's stellar in the first scene this coming Sunday, because the reaction you're complaining about hasn't been aired yet because the ep cut off in the middle of the action, so we could relish dead Joffrey, what then?

Cersei isn't real demonstrative by nature and has this curse on her keeping her kind of edgy. With that dad I bet she stuffs her feelings.

[Misnthropia]

Plus there's a strong possibility that the hairnet was intended to point the blame at Sansa after the event, but Littlefinger betrayed the Tyrells by getting Sansa out of there. I assume the books still have more to reveal about what happened at the wedding.

On the necklace: that was to be honest a little weak in the TV show - in the books, Olenna could be quite sure that Sansa was going to wear the hairnet, but in the show there wasn't much of a reason for Sansa to wear the necklace to that specific event. Of course, if Dontos had said "You must wear it to the wedding! You must wear it to the wedding!", that would have been an obvious giveaway that something was up.

I dont think the Tyrells had any intention of blaming Sansa or any of the blame falling onto her. They were genuinely looking out for her. With that being said, I do think Olenna would have had a good idea that Tyrion would have been fingered for it given the strained relationship of Cersei Joffery and Tyrion and by association Sansa would have gone down for it as well but in the end shes one girl. I dont know if Littlefinger would have told the Tyrells the entire plan for Sansa as they wanted her for Loras and to get her out of the capital and her falling into Littlefingers hands is arguably just as bad as the Lannisters in some ways.

I will be interested to see how they play Littlefinger into this whole thing in the coming episodes because there are lots of questions that arent fully answered and I think the show was far less subtle than the books were at pointing out who did it and maybe theyll also reveal a few extra things there to.

[rmholt]

Don't know if this is the right sub forum but in the intro, a new Q and an old: the Dragonstone to Dreadfort flyby goes past the 3 sisters and a vague town seems to be off to the left. With an octopoidy shape. White Harbor? Old castle? Misplaced sisterton w spiders crab? Also the dominant structure in the intro is awesome but could be seen as a sword or spear through a sun. My pot of brown is up to 3 meats but 16 beans. Maybe the dogs will bring in another ground squirrel.

[Misnthropia]

Little known fact: Olenna was a point guard for the Arbor team. The clinks are dinnerware. She had a good crossover but Loras' was better. She had the outside set shot.

For Marg to be queen the Tyrells have count on Tywin not rethinking the alliance. Someone could get a little apprehensive while things are playing out, or TV folk might benefit from an explanation.

Tywin really cant rethink the Tyrell alliance.

The Tyrells have a fairly firm grasp of power at this point. As we hear in this episode the Iron Bank is knocking. The capital is in major debt and the Tyrells are a source of a) soldiers b) food c) money and major sources at that. Without the Tyrells the kingdom would be in complete disaray and Tywin knows this, whats worse, so does Olenna.

I think Cersei would be hesitant in entering the alliance, Margery Tyrell, twice a widow to murdered kings - but Tywin is very intent on marrying someone to her. if Jamie wont then the only other option is Tommen. Which falls straight into their plans.

I think the Tyrells - more specifically Olenna - is a tactical genius.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I dont think the Tyrells had any intention of blaming Sansa or any of the blame falling onto her. They were genuinely looking out for her. With that being said, I do think Olenna would have had a good idea that Tyrion would have been fingered for it given the strained relationship of Cersei Joffery and Tyrion and by association Sansa would have gone down for it as well but in the end shes one girl. I dont know if Littlefinger would have told the Tyrells the entire plan for Sansa as they wanted her for Loras and to get her out of the capital and her falling into Littlefingers hands is arguably just as bad as the Lannisters in some ways.

I will be interested to see how they play Littlefinger into this whole thing in the coming episodes because there are lots of questions that arent fully answered and I think the show was far less subtle than the books were at pointing out who did it and maybe theyll also reveal a few extra things there to.

I sorta think that the Tyrells wanted to make it look like a genuine choking instead of pointing the finger at Tyrion and Sansa. Tyrion was sort of in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Kaguya]

Podrick has lost weight and evolved throughout the seasons, could probably even pass off as handsome now.

Ramsays actor seems to have lost weight too.

[Moët]

The dragon image isn't meant to be a literal event. It either means a dragon arriving at King's Landing aka Dany (not ON a dragon, but the idea of her, a dragon, arriving at King's Landing.... Or about her reign in King's Landing? Have to point out it appeared to be 'summery'). Or, it could be in relation to The Three Eyed Crow and his heritage.

Why not? Most everything in Bran's vision was a literal event. Why would a dragon flying over KL not be a literal event to come?

Bran is going to warg a dragon.

And why can't the three heads be Jon, Bran, and Arya since they're all wargs?

[Moët]

Agree, it's a TOTAL nitpick, but why not purple, and for that matter, why not a hairnet. The idea that she's going to realistically have a huge gemstone on her necklace missing and no one notice it....seems fairly unlikely.

Because this is a TV show, and a necklace is easier to shoot, allow someone else to touch and have the missing stone easily kept in frame and seen in the shot without having to shoot the back or top of Sansa's head.

I thought the color was fine, considering how hard staying true to color is with video. (Green-eyed actors show up as blue-eyed a lot.)

They're not going to spend post $$$$ on fixing the color for book fans when it's close enough, and there are dragons and Lady S to pay for.