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Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

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It didn't take that long. The QoT slipped the poison in as Joffrey was cutting the pie. He took a drink and then cut pie. Olenna was right behind him on the dais.

and notice she was first one and the second and third one to yell at people to help the king.

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See, that's what bothers me. While I couldn't see the gem missing, it was obvious what she was doing. To the point that none of Tyrions interactions with the cup are done in a way where he could have poisoned it. I mean, the first pour is in front of Tywin & Cersei, the 2nd in front of everyone. There's no ambiguity with the way it was done.

I don't think there's supposed to be. But also keep in mind we knew what to look for going in.

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It was Olenna with the help of LF and nobody else. The wider you make a conspiracy the easier it is for it to be uncovered. Margaery knowing about it would mean her reaction to Joffrey's death would be dampened. Tywin doesn't trust the Martell's, rightly so, so there is little chance they would come to him with this plot, unless he was kept in the dark of their involvement, and it was orchestrated by LF.

IMO, LF and the QoT are solely to blame, with the help of Sir Dontos the Fool and Sansa as an unknowing contributor. LF destabilizes the realm again, his constant goal, and now he gets Sansa too.

I see it differently... Judging by the trailer for next episode, I could see Olenna and Margaery having this conversation...

Margaery "Why did you make me poison Joffery with that stone"

Olenna " Your prospects are much improved with Joffery dead. He would have killed you for fun at some point in the near future "

Margaery " But I would have been Queen"

Olenna " You will still be Queen. You will marry Joffery's little brother. Who isn't a mad man from incest "

Edited by Needle's Pointy End

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The stannis scene ruined the whole episode for me.

I cant possibly think of a more effective way to demonize a character.

LOLOLOLOL! You DO realize that GRRM wrote this episode, don't you?

It's HIS character, and if you and he differ on the nature of that character, who do you think is more likely to be right?

Anyway, I think the scene demonizes Melisandre and Selyse far more than it does Stannis.

He mostly just lurks in the background grinding his teeth.

You could easily interpret his actions to mean that he disapproves of the burnings.

It cuts to the dinner table scene, where he feels that the meat is off, but Mel and Selyse are chowing down happily.

I would interpret that to mean that the human sacrifices turned his stomach.

Take some solace in that. He's at least not so utterly depraved as are his wife and concubine.

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See, that's what bothers me. While I couldn't see the gem missing, it was obvious what she was doing. To the point that none of Tyrions interactions with the cup are done in a way where he could have poisoned it. I mean, the first pour is in front of Tywin & Cersei, the 2nd in front of everyone. There's no ambiguity with the way it was done.

I feel like since in the book we didn't know who did it but we knew for a fact Tyrian didn't we are going to get a bit of the reverse. We will know the Tyrell's were involved so that the viewers still get to experience Tyrion being falsely accused. I really feel like the biggest twist is LF involvement anyway.

As far as why Sansa, I just always assumed it was a way to assure that she was completely broken away from Lannister hands. She represents the North to all the main family players. The Tyrell's will never get her in their family but if they can get her away from King's Landing in a way that will prevent any sort of reconciliation that's good enough. Plus, by making Sansa an accessory she's automatically involved and it forces her hand in to joining the cause against the Lannister's. I don't know that they expected Tyrion to be accused, my guess was that it was supposed to look like Sansa did it all along and the best way to make her as willing a participant after the fact as possible was to actually have her have a hand in it.

Plus, spies everywhere, I'm sure Varys had people watching all the Tyrel's plus any of Cersei's henchmen.

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It's only obvious it was Olenna if you're looking for it. Most of the Unsullied comments I've seen are thinking Tywin, Oberyn, Varys, some actually thinking it WAS Tyrion (pfft) and even Cersei! That last one is just bonkers...


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In Bran's vision, it seemed like Ned noticed something and looked up at the tree. Implication that Bran can travel to the past through the weirnet.

not implied. a fact. bran was able to travel through time in the weirnet and we saw dunk the tall and young ned and others through his visions.

I kind of like how they made it seem as if Shae escaped. It will be that much more of a shock to the non-readers when she shows up to testify against Tyrion

i agree. i doubt we'll see shae until she has to testify. the unsullied will lose it!

I always read the book passages that their goal was that it appear natural, not that it be a poisoning or that Sansa be blamed, or even Tyrion. Of course they would arrange it so that they were not directly involved in any of the chain of events...but I don't know that this means they ever intended for Tyrion and Sansa to be accused.

it would seem you're correct about it appearing natural according to grrm himself:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/13/george-r-r-martin-why-joffrey-killed/

I don’t know how it comes across in the show, because I haven’t actually seen it yet, but the poison that is used to kill Joffrey is one that I introduce earlier in the books and its symptoms are similar to choking. So a feast is the perfect time to use this thing. I think the intent of the murderer is not to have this become another Red Wedding—the Red Wedding was very clearly murder and butchery. I think the idea with Joffrey’s death was to make it look like an accident — someone’s out celebrating, they haven’t invented the Heimlich maneuver, so when someone gets food caught in his throat, it’s very serious.

tyrion and sansa weren't meant to be framed by olenna but tyrion may have been meant to be framed by littlefinger since we know he was behind the entertainment that was bound to get a visible rile out of tyrion right before the king's "death".

Edited by jons nissa

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Careful, folks. ARCs tend to come with embargo dates on reviews and such.

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I'm a big fan of what the creators have done with the show, but I think they kinda screwed up by not mentioning Oberyn's pseudonym so far. Most of my Unsullied friends think of Oberyn as a brute stabby-maniac now, and none even considered it as a posibility for Joff's killer.



Mace's portrayal was also lacking, I thought. Even Dontos had more composure than him.



Great episode, though. Loved the Ned visions.


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That was gruesome. Like his death in the books, I'm not sure I can applaud it.

The looks on several characters faces before the death were important. Tywin's, Olenna's, Margaery's, Oberyn's..... I can see that the creators are trying to keep the Unsullied guessing as to who poisoned the King.

My husband is unsullied, but the placement of the cup in front of the QoT for so long tipped him off. "Well, clearly she had SOMETHING to do with it."

Edit to add:

The character assassination of Stannis is mind-blowing. Kin-slaying over a religion he is not totally devout to? Really stupid move by D&D. They should have kept the fact that Lord Florent tried to betray Stannis to the Lannisters and thus it was a justifiable execution.

The screenplay for this episode was written by GRRM. He made the character choices this go round.

I thought it was extremely stupid, and [shae] isn't that dumb in the show. My sister and father will kill you, so you have to get on the boat, end of discussion is much more sensible than what they did.

Except, as Tyrion explained to Varys, he told Shae she was in danger so many times without consequence that she just didn't believe it anymore - like he was crying wolf. And during their fight, Shae accuses Tyrion of letting his sister and his father drive his actions needlessly. Shae wasn't going to leave until Tyrion gave her a reason to reject HIM and not the King's Landing situation.

Edited by fangirl000

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It's only obvious it was Olenna if you're looking for it. Most of the Unsullied comments I've seen are thinking Tywin, Oberyn, Varys, some actually thinking it WAS Tyrion (pfft) and even Cersei! That last one is just bonkers...

Not entirely, and not when you consider the TV as a different medium. Joffrey grew out of hand, she still has Tommen, we've already seen 1 compassionate killing, if the poison had been in the pie then Cersei's redirecting the leftovers was highly coincidental, she almost immediately capitalized and redirected a tragedy into an opportunity to attack Tyrion.

It seems ridiculous for Cersei in the book, but not show!Cersei, IMO. Her horrible acting (whether it was the performance or the editing) at the end of the episode doesn't help matters either. I know she didn't do it, and I'm still wondering if she did it...

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Why on earth would they be singing "The Rains of Castamere" at a wedding?

Because it's THE Lannister song, letting everyone know, how badass they are. I remember from the books its played until no one can hear it anymore. Olenna has a sentence like: I hope they play Rains of Castamere again, I have not heard it in an hour, I almost forgot how it goes. :D

I'm sorry, but the "Rains of Castemere" was not being played at the Purple Wedding because it's a "Lannister song". Given Tywin's character, he probably dislikes the song. Joff also dislikes the song being played. No, this was put in as an avatar of the forthcoming poisoning. It's also some sort of a clue to who did the dirty deed on old Joff. It's the kind of touch somebody like Olenna would think of.

Although it's not clear from the books whether or not Tywin (or his children) actually likes the song, it's definitely played by musicians who are trying to kiss Lannister butt. However, I was under the impression that there were several interpretations of this song, some somber, some cheerful--though I can't find textual evidence at the moment. I assumed it was a cheerful version that was played at the wedding. The Lannisters definitely use it to their advantage when they see fit, but I doubt they want to hear it as frequently as it's played at the wedding.

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Careful, folks. ARCs tend to come with embargo dates on reviews and such.

Ran, could you explain what you mean? arcs as in character or arcs or is it some sort of acronym?

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My husband is unsullied, but the placement of the cup in front of the QoT for so long tipped him off. "Well, clearly she had SOMETHING to do with it."

Edit to add:

The screenplay for this episode was written by GRRM.

Same w my wife, she blamed QoT because she was so quick to react while everyone else was just standing there.

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How did Ramsay trust Theon enough to shave his neck? Doesn't Theon want to die anyway?

In the book, Theon is always paralyzed by fear. He would think things like, What if I don't cut deep enough? or What if he catches me before I can go through with it? Because then Ramsay would hurt him even more. Edited by Onna Lewyys

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I'm a big fan of what the creators have done with the show, but I think they kinda screwed up by not mentioning Oberyn's pseudonym so far. Most of my Unsullied friends think of Oberyn as a brute stabby-maniac now, and none even considered it as a posibility for Joff's killer.

Mace's portrayal was also lacking, I thought. Even Dontos had more composure than him.

Great episode, though. Loved the Ned visions.

I agree that the "Red Viper" backstory, which makes Oberyn almost as infamous as Jamie in the 7 kingdoms, should have been exposited before the poisoning, if for no other reason than to create another suspect for the Westerosi Clue game everyone is now engaging in.

I have on dissenting opinion to add to the discussion though. I don't like referring to show-only viewers as "Unsullied" The Unsullied are badass warriors who endure everything. Show-only viewers should be referred to as "Summer Childern" I think the connotation is more fitting, as they have never endured the heartache that comes with being a fan of the ASOIaF series.

Edited by Rob Snow

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My husband is unsullied, but the placement of the cup in front of the QoT for so long tipped him off. "Well, clearly she had SOMETHING to do with it."

Edit to add:

The screenplay for this episode was written by GRRM.

Actually, Stannis' scene was from Episode 1 and got moved, so it wasn't written by GRRM. Not that I think it matters, though.

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In the book, Theon is always paralyzed by fear. He would think things like, What if I don't cut deep enough? or What if he catches me before I can go through with it? Because then Ramsay would hurt him even more.

In the shaving scenario, Theon/Reek would be thinking, "It's a trick, Lord Ramsey is giving me a dull blade, hoping I attempt to slit his throat, so he can take another finger. I must remember my name Reek, Reek, it rhymes with weak."

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Actually, Stannis' scene was from Episode 1 and got moved, so it wasn't written by GRRM. Not that I think it matters, though.

I wonder if anything GRRM wrote was moved to episode 3?

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