Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

GRRM has used that one on occasion when people have presented super-elaborate theories that greatly complicate things that needs no complication.

Agreed, but I will still be sceptic as GRRM stated in that SSM

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.
Edited by Paper Waver

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that mystified me in the book is the hairnet amethysts.Now , if I remember, from the book The Strangler crystal does look like an amethyst.I figure the ones in the hairnet are all real except for one , have to know where the Strangler is, but that can be arranged.So if one can drop it into a cup of wine , at the last second, the damn thing dissolves in a microsecond?What was it a centimeter , millimeter in size? Leaves no residue? All that bothered me in SoS.I notice on the show , as most other readers have, that the necklace has almost greenish clear stones, tho, I must admit, have seen amethysts that are very light in color.I don't see the Olenna thing as a diversionary ploy, why make it so inconspicuous?The poison may not have been Strangler.Notice the first piece of pie that anyone eats is Joffrey (by the by one can see other people eating the pie in the background a second later).So did Marge have poisoned fork?Or was it the serving maid who had knowingly or unknowingly the plate with the only piece of poisoned pie?

"Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshaii gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a mans throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victims face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food"

IMO I think it was def the Strangler. This whole thread has been such a great read. I love reading everyone's thoughts and theories.

Edited by Cersei the Great

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Martin's suggestion that he has yet to reveal all things is that: a) at the time of the interview, viewers don't know the involvement of any other third parties, i.e. Littlefinger, and B) the specific events leading to Tyrion being blamed and Sansa running away tie into (a), and are (in my estimation) things that Littlefinger worked with the Tyrells up to a point but made sure to manipulate things to get what he wanted (Tyrion blamed, Sansa escaped).

I buy the idea that the Tyrells didn't mean to pin it on Tyrion and Sansa, but then I always though so from the time ASoS was published. Indeed, given what we see of the QoT, she has a vehement hatred of Oberyn Martell, so I think in all likelihood she did indeed mean to pin it on Oberyn -- and maybe Littlefinger assured her that he'd help lay evidence to point in that direction.ut

These details would need the further books to come out, as so far on can only speculate, and so that fits Martin's remark.

But the very specific claim that two unrelated parties of would-be poisoners decided to use the same poison, at the same event, at approximately the same time? It strains credulity.

Edited by Ran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most “unacceptable” fact in the canon story for me is the idea that Olenna and LF actually sat together and plotted the murder of a king. I don’t think Tyrells can trust any person (whether a highborn or a lowborn) in such a dangerous plot except their own family.



Book LF is seen as an “upjumped jackanapes” as Randyll put it. Like most of the other nobility, the Tyrells are also obsessed with noble blood. While Tywin was charging LF to marry Lysa and bring the Vale into the king’s peace, Mace needed to be reminded that LF is fit to the marriage as the Lord of Harrenhal. Even with such a title, they need time to consider LF as a high lord. So, how can they hope to trust such a man?



Besides, LF plainly tells us how he does his work. While treating with the Tyrells, he praised Joffrey to the skies whereas his servants spread the word of his psychopathic nature. He planted his other ideas the same way, without saying anything but feeding proper information through his agents, so that the Tyrells believe that those are their own ideas.



With this perspective, there must be a mechanism to make sense of how the Tyrells knew and decided to use Sansa’s poison carrying hairnet.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone has access to the April Vanity Fair, that has the GoT cover story...... The photo inside of Sansa where she's almost the center of the photo...... she's wearing the necklace, and the stone is missing.



http://fashionaddictedfoodies.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/STARK-SHADOWS-Vanity-Fair.png



Love that.

Edited by Moët

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right, but as you said before it may be from that POV. The cup could be laying behind Marg. But I don't dismiss the pie hypothesis, though. The cup could very well be a red herring.

Do you mean Marge putting down the cut but we don't see her turn lose of it?

Unless my eyes deceive me there at least two sequences of (I guess these are digital) frames where one can see the end of the wedding couple's table, the place where it looked like Marge placed the goblet, and it is just flat not there!

By POV I mean that the the camera is pointed at someone else or something else than the table.

In fact as one poster noted there is shot where the end of table is just out of frame, so we can't count that shot.

But the others are there.

Edited by boojam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't recall anywhere where Olenna Tyrell is obsessed with noble blood. Indeed, quite the opposite:

If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. 'What does it matter?' you ask, and of course it doesn't, except to oafs like my son.

She is a very unconventional woman. Littlefinger's an unconventional man. No big surprise that they would work together... and also against one another. Olenna tried to ferret Sansa away to her own ends, Littlefinger stopped it, she needed help murdering Joffrey, he provided it... and got away with Sansa to boot, which it seems likely she didn't anticipate. Because Littlefinger twisted things to his purposes, and not hers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you mean Marge putting down the cut but we don't see her turn lose of it?

Unless my eyes deceive me there at least two sequences of (I guess these are digital) frames where one can see the end of the wedding couple's table, the place where it looked like Marge placed the goblet, and it is just flat not there!

By POV I mean that the the camera is pointed at someone else or something else than the table.

In fact as one poster noted there is shot where the end of table is just out of frame, so we can't count that shot.

But the others are there.

I am not the best person to notice these things, but it seems plausible to me that the cup could have been a little more to the right, lying behind Marg in those frames. You see her laying the cup down from a side perspective, lacking any sense of depth. I haven't noticed any frame dismissing this hypothesis. Or maybe it's really a continuity error and we are overthinking it.

EDIT: I forgot about Tyrion. He clearly goes all the way to the end of the table.

Edited by Ravi Seaworth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ean to pin it on Oberyn -- and maybe Littlefinger assured her that he'd help lay evidence to point in that direction.ut

These details would need the further books to come out, as so far on can only speculate, and so that fits Martin's remark.

George did write the teleplay for this episode.

The whole wedding sequence must have been discussed by George with Dave, Dan and Alex Graves.

Quite apart of who the perpetrators are ... what did you think about Alex Graves remarks about how carefully they composed and edited the visual narrative for that sequence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Surprised with so many theories around...the TV version may be hard on pinning it down on Tyrion or Sansa but have the people forgotten about the little chat Sansa had with Margaery and Grandma Tyrell about Joffrey ?



Oberyn is another fine addition to the show. And finally the troubadour Tyrion is off the screen with Shae gone (IF she's gone...no way with all this romance setup will they refrain from using her as a star witness against Tyrion).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the poisoning, I don't know Marg and QoT's exact movements, as it seems Marg has the better position to slip the strangler jewel.



However, when QoT walks over with the poison, you see a far shot and a *PLONK* sound effect, which could mean she just slipped it in the cup. But that sound could have been from another character as it's a far shot and we see blurred people in the foreground.



So maybe she handed it off to Marg who then poisons the cup and offers it to Joff. I'm not sure. But I think Marg is definitely a part of the plot.





And finally the troubadour Tyrion is off the screen with Shae gone (IF she's gone...no way with all this romance setup will they refrain from using her as a star witness against Tyrion).




The false Tyrion reminds me of the ret-con where Tyrion is suddenly an acrobat in Dance and wanted to runaway to join the circus. I hope they foreshadow that better in the show and introduce it if they're going to use it when Tyrion is on the boat sailing away. Otherwise it's going to be awkward to shove in the show "btw I love the circus." Hey there's a dwarf girl and a pig for jousting!


Edited by Honey Badger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the poisoning, I don't know Marg and QoT's exact movements, as it seems Marg has the better position to slip the strangler jewel.

However, when QoT walks over with the poison, you see a far shot and a *PLONK* sound effect, which could mean she just slipped it in the cup. But that sound could have been from another character as it's a far shot and we see blurred people in the foreground.

So maybe she handed it off to Marg who then poisons the cup and offers it to Joff. I'm not sure. But I think Marg is definitely a part of the plot.

Apologies if anyone has mentioned this already but on second watch we noticed there is a great little moment just after Marge has fed Joffrey the pie where she conciously but very subtley wipes her hand to remove any poison, er, crumbs. I loved these little red herrings (or are they?) that they sprinkled about!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the suggested names for the Joffrey's sword was "Terminus" a nice little reference to Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" series. Another great saga that I read simultaneously with Song of Ice and Fire. The main character from those novels is a professional torturer and headsman carrying a special sword named "Terminus est".


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×