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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

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LOLOLOLOL! You DO realize that GRRM wrote this episode, don't you?

It's HIS character, and if you and he differ on the nature of that character, who do you think is more likely to be right?

Firstly, GRRM didn't write the Stannis scenes in this episode. Second, even if he had, he writes his episodes in compliance with the showrunners' outline, not his own preferences.

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The screenplay for this episode was written by GRRM. He made the character choices this go round.

Some have said that the Stannis scene was written by D&D, and originally intended for another episode.

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It's a fist, extending from an arm dressed in black, smashing ice. You can even see the thumb. http://i.imgur.com/QiKxbqd.png

I'm actually seeing Bloodraven. Notice that there's a ghostly face with something coming into his open mouth and out of his left eye socket. Or, it could just be an Other.

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I agree that the "Red Viper" backstory, which makes Oberyn almost as infamous as Jamie in the 7 kingdoms, should have been exposited before the poisoning, if for no other reason than to create another suspect for the Westerosi Clue game everyone is now engaging in.

agreed. i couldn't help having a fleeting thought that the show might suggest the viper based on his conversation with tywin and cersei and then i remembered the show hasn't discussed his skill with poison.

I have on dissenting opinion to add to the discussion though. I don't like referring to show-only viewers as "Unsullied" The Unsullied are badass warriors who endure everything. Show-only viewers should be referred to as "Summer Childern" I think the connotation is more fitting, as they have never endured the heartache that comes with being a fan of the ASOIaF series.

nice way to put it but i do like referring to them as unsullied. they seem to like it as well.

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I have to say, as a book-reader, so far this season isn't quite living up to the standards i'd expect so far. I didn't have the pleasure of watching my non-reader friends' reactions (because everyone watches it at different times on Monday here in Ireland when they can get their hands on a good stream/torrent/wait for Sky Atlantic at 9pm) so maybe i missed the enjoyment there.



My issue is, considering GRRM wrote the majority of this episode, it just didn't have that usual buzz of 'what stuff will he throw in for the readers!?' vibe. Bran's greendreams are grand and all, but that plotline has potential t seriously stagnate. Only glimmer of hope is that my boyfriend is fairly convinced he spotted Cold Hands' horse in the green dream near the tree, so that might perk my interest up again.



Overall, though, I feel the pace has actually lulled a bit too much. Dany is as uninteresting as ever, King's Landing is going to do the same pretty soon unless they do a lot with the trial and ensuing combat between oberyn and the mountain, Arya and the Hound seem to just be meandering until she heads to Braavos.



I can't quite put my finger on it but the Buzz i've had about the show before isn't really there, they've made slight changes to characters (Cersei, Stannis, Tyrion spring to mind) just enough to irk me, because there appears to be no justification for it. I worry that working with the show is changing GRRM's opinion of how he did it X number of years ago and that he's going to sway too far from whats been written already.


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I'm actually seeing Bloodraven. Notice that there's a ghostly face with something coming into his open mouth and out of his left eye socket. Or, it could just be an Other.

Actually, I rewatched the scene, and it looked to me like simply the reflection of a WW in ice.

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I'm sorry, but the "Rains of Castemere" was not being played at the Purple Wedding because it's a "Lannister song". Given Tywin's character, he probably dislikes the song. Joff also dislikes the song being played. No, this was put in as an avatar of the forthcoming poisoning. It's also some sort of a clue to who did the dirty deed on old Joff. It's the kind of touch somebody like Olenna would think of.

I'm still not buying the "she got the poison from Sansa's necklace/hairnet" BS. Didn't happen.

I just have to stand in awe of this.

Of course I won't believe TV Shae will come back unless I see it with my own eyes.

GRRM is tricky and his characters aren't always omniscient or truthful but he is.

I don't agree - the Rains of Castamere was IMHO written expressly to record the fate of House Reyne, eliminated in the signature Tywin way, not nec a Lannister signature, a TYWIN Lannister signature. Recall how Maelys told Connington how Tywin would have handled Stony Sept. Tywin likes others to hear that song very much. If there were a Tarbeck song, he'd want peopl to hear that too. Where else to remind big shots of the realm than in his house with as many big shots present as guests as his son the king gets married?

Joffrey was just bored and spoiled.

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a Only glimmer of hope is that my boyfriend is fairly convinced he spotted Cold Hands' horse in the green dream near the tree, so that might perk my interest up again.

CH rode an Elk, that horse looked dead so I'd say it's a WW.

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Some have said that the Stannis scene was written by D&D, and originally intended for another episode.

Whoever is responsible for replacing Lord Sunglass or Alester with Axell Florent gets a big THANKS from me. Oaf.

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CH rode an Elk, that horse looked dead so I'd say it's a WW.

Damn, i really want CH to be in it, cause i'm in (i think the fairly large camp) that think he's Benjen Stark. I'm mostly just praying that, even with all the theories and discussions, GRRM still manages to surprise us readers with something completely out of the blue or insanely well-buried before the end of the series. I don't want this to be consigned to the pile of stories that never lived up to their endings. And i'd also hope the show doesn't sway too far from the source text. It only takes a small deviation for them to be way off track three seasons down the line, though GRRM should hopefully realise these problems before they multiply

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Damn, i really want CH to be in it, cause i'm in (i think the fairly large camp) that think he's Benjen Stark. I'm mostly just praying that, even with all the theories and discussions, GRRM still manages to surprise us readers with something completely out of the blue or insanely well-buried before the end of the series. I don't want this to be consigned to the pile of stories that never lived up to their endings. And i'd also hope the show doesn't sway too far from the source text. It only takes a small deviation for them to be way off track three seasons down the line, though GRRM should hopefully realise these problems before they multiply

You never know..he might still be. Probably not on an elk though, I think the logistics of that rules it out.

That might actually be his horse since he's dead himself, give him a dead horse instead of a massive elk etc.

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I have to say, as a book-reader, so far this season isn't quite living up to the standards i'd expect so far. I didn't have the pleasure of watching my non-reader friends' reactions (because everyone watches it at different times on Monday here in Ireland when they can get their hands on a good stream/torrent/wait for Sky Atlantic at 9pm) so maybe i missed the enjoyment there.

My issue is, considering GRRM wrote the majority of this episode, it just didn't have that usual buzz of 'what stuff will he throw in for the readers!?' vibe. Bran's greendreams are grand and all, but that plotline has potential t seriously stagnate. Only glimmer of hope is that my boyfriend is fairly convinced he spotted Cold Hands' horse in the green dream near the tree, so that might perk my interest up again.

Overall, though, I feel the pace has actually lulled a bit too much. Dany is as uninteresting as ever, King's Landing is going to do the same pretty soon unless they do a lot with the trial and ensuing combat between oberyn and the mountain, Arya and the Hound seem to just be meandering until she heads to Braavos.

I can't quite put my finger on it but the Buzz i've had about the show before isn't really there, they've made slight changes to characters (Cersei, Stannis, Tyrion spring to mind) just enough to irk me, because there appears to be no justification for it. I worry that working with the show is changing GRRM's opinion of how he did it X number of years ago and that he's going to sway too far from whats been written already.

I thought the pacing in Ep 1 was great, but last night was back to the same flaws from Seasons 2 and 3. Only the final scene gets the attention it deserves, any other important events (like Bran's tree) are quickly glossed over, and the rest of the episode is filled with short expositive scenes pieced together at random (usually involving 2 person conversations, despite having a cast of about 1,000 from which to pull).

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It bothers me that a simple detail like Joffrey "clawing at his throat" couldnt be added in the final scene.

Wasn't necessary, it was horrible enough, and I think it would only have been necessary if they hadn't added the bleeding eyes/ nose etc. Not everything in the books needs to go on the screen

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I thought the pacing in Ep 1 was great, but last night was back to the same flaws from Seasons 2 and 3. Only the final scene gets the attention it deserves, any other important events (like Bran's tree) are quickly glossed over, and the rest of the episode is filled with short expositive scenes pieced together at random (usually involving 2 person conversations, despite having a cast of about 1,000 from which to pull).

This. Exactly.

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You never know..he might still be. Probably not on an elk though, I think the logistics of that rules it out.

That might actually be his horse since he's dead himself, give him a dead horse instead of a massive elk etc.

Wasn't it kinda confirmed CH wouldn't be making an appearance? I can't remember where I read it, to be honest, was an interview, but I kinda assumed he just wasn't going to be in the series. Would be nice to be proven otherwise though lol

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It bothers me that a simple detail like Joffrey "clawing at his throat" couldnt be added in the final scene.

See this is my main issue from a book-reader's point of view. Just a little bit more attention to detail on their part would give us a bit more of a satisfaction buzz in noticing little details like that without necessarily altering a scene at all. It almost feels lazy at times.

I thought the pacing in Ep 1 was great, but last night was back to the same flaws from Seasons 2 and 3. Only the final scene gets the attention it deserves, any other important events (like Bran's tree) are quickly glossed over, and the rest of the episode is filled with short expositive scenes pieced together at random (usually involving 2 person conversations, despite having a cast of about 1,000 from which to pull).

It was always going to be hard to fill half an episode while working around the PW. They managed it better for the RW because scenes like the hound and arya were still tying into it. Imo there was actually too much of the wedding, it went beyond anticipation and went to the point of 'Oh my god, just show it already'

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I'm convinced that it's Coldhands in Bran's vision, only made into a white walker. Why would Bran see a vision of a random white walker? I think Bran sees visions of Coldhands, and what looks like one of the children of the forest (presumably Leaf) because they're going to help him on his way.

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