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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

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I clearly didn't read the book closely enough the first time, I don't remember Olenna having anything to do with Joffrey getting poisoned. I DO remember Littlefinger explaining to Sansa that a couple of the Kingsguard were in his pocket and that he got one of them to poison the King, but I'm clearly misremembering because in 50 pages no one has mentioned this. Might have to give it another read through.


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They botched the editing of the jewel-nabbing scene quite a bit. Olenna adjusts Sansa's braids, plucks the jewel with her right hand, directly moves it to her left hand - then it cuts to a camera angle from behind her, showing her left hand resting on the table, clearly not holding anything. A couple of seconds later, after Tyrion arrives, she again moves something from her right hand to her left hand, and then it looks like she is pinching something between her left thumb and long finger (her index finger is poking out, the rest of the fingers tense). And then there are a couple of weird cuts where the camera is from her side, with her right hand on Sansa's shoulder, and from her front, with both her hands down by her waist. It cuts back and forth a couple of times, instantaneously.




They obviously did at least two takes and edited them together, missing that they were slightly different. That could definitely confuse people.


Edited by Opisthokont!

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I really, really liked Sansa on this episode. * that look while the dwarfs were jousting gave me chills* I only wish she had just left, without Ser Dontos interefering. Probably the only thing that bugged me on this episode.



Also, what about Shae?


Edited by Nymeria Stone

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That would be too much of of a coincidence for me as he starts choking exactly when he started drinking again. Slow poison ok, but it sets in the exact moment he starts drinking from the cup again is unlikely. And if it's in the cup to start with the stone from Sansas necklace wouldn't be needed. So, nah not really buying it.

Why would that be unlikely? You ever been slowly poisoned before from a cup of wine before?

Then don't buy it. But that's how it went down.

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Also, of all the things Joffrey did, interrupting Sigur Rós before they got to their crescendo was the most vile.

I love them, but I'm slightly disappointed its not Jack Gleeson singing over the credits, would have been positively poetic! I'd have believed it too, it really does sound like how you'd expect his singing voice to be like!

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I love them, but I'm slightly disappointed its not Jack Gleeson singing over the credits, would have been positively poetic! I'd have believed it too, it really does sound like how you'd expect his singing voice to be like!

I too thought that it was Jack Gleeson in the credits.

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Why would that be unlikely? You ever been slowly poisoned before from a cup of wine before?

Then don't buy it. But that's how it went down.

And you know that how? What would be the whole point of the necklace then?

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I only wish she had just left, without Ser Dontos interefering. Probably the only thing that bugged me on this episode.

Once they cut her knowledge of the plan, her "just leaving" wouldn't make any sense.

I have to say, while I can't really blame the show for this given the paucity of the source material, I find it very hard to summon up any interest in Bran's story at this point. I hope the new elements will make it more interesting in the coming episodes. And they really need to make the representation of Bran's abilities more interesting.

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I clearly didn't read the book closely enough the first time, I don't remember Olenna having anything to do with Joffrey getting poisoned. I DO remember Littlefinger explaining to Sansa that a couple of the Kingsguard were in his pocket and that he got one of them to poison the King, but I'm clearly misremembering because in 50 pages no one has mentioned this. Might have to give it another read through.

Yeah, you're misremembering. Quick refresher: Dontos asks Sansa to wear the hairnet with the "purple amethysts from Asshai" on it. She does so. During the wedding Olenna comes over and fiddles with Sansa's hairnet. Joff dies. As Sansa is escaping she notices that one of her "amethysts" has gone missing and left a powdery residue behind in the setting for the jewel. The implication in the book is clear; the "amethysts" were actually crystallized poison (the Strangler) and Sansa was used to smuggle the poison into the wedding. Littlefinger is the one who arranged for Sansa to be Olenna's "poison mule".

Why exactly LF wanted to use Sansa for this is still unclear to me, but I would guess that he was the one providing the poison and he suggested this means of delivery to Olenna because it would force Sansa to leave the city and go with Littlefinger once the deed was done -- obviously if Sansa were discovered to be the one who smuggled in the poison that killed Joff, she would be executed summarily as the Lannisters would never believe she had no knowledge of the "amethysts".

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I too thought that it was Jack Gleeson in the credits.

Somebody in college will convince him to sing it and record it for a laugh at some stage, nothing a few pints in the student bar in Trinity can't achieve!

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And you know that how? What would be the whole point of the necklace then?

What? That's where the poison came from. The poison is ingrained within the chalice itself after Olenna dropped it in . Sublimation friend.

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Yeah, you're misremembering. Quick refresher: Dontos asks Sansa to wear the hairnet with the "purple amethysts from Asshai" on it. She does so. During the wedding Olenna comes over and fiddles with Sansa's hairnet. Joff dies. As Sansa is escaping she notices that one of her "amethysts" has gone missing and left a powdery residue behind in the setting for the jewel. The implication in the book is clear; the "amethysts" were actually crystallized poison (the Strangler) and Sansa was used to smuggle the poison into the wedding. Littlefinger is the one who arranged for Sansa to be Olenna's "poison mule".

Also, subsequently Littlefinger knows that one of the amethysts is missing and that someone touched the hairnet, and knows that it was Olenna who did it.

As to why it was necessary, I don't think it was at all. It was a literary flourish on Martin's part, more than anything else.

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Why would that be unlikely? You ever been slowly poisoned before from a cup of wine before?

Then don't buy it. But that's how it went down.

Um no...

Olenna slipped the stone to her granddaughter who then plopped it in Joffery's wine when he gave her his wine goblet so he could cut the pigeon pie... done and done!

Edited by Needle's Pointy End

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Why exactly LF wanted to use Sansa for this is still unclear to me, but I would guess that he was the one providing the poison and he suggested this means of delivery to Olenna because it would force Sansa to leave the city and go with Littlefinger once the deed was done -- obviously if Sansa were discovered to be the one who smuggled in the poison that killed Joff, she would be executed summarily as the Lannisters would never believe she had no knowledge of the "amethysts".

i agree. littlefinger wanted something to force sansa's hand and having her connected to the murder is definitely good for keeping her close to him.

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Yeah, you're misremembering. Quick refresher: Dontos asks Sansa to wear the hairnet with the "purple amethysts from Asshai" on it. She does so. During the wedding Olenna comes over and fiddles with Sansa's hairnet. Joff dies. As Sansa is escaping she notices that one of her "amethysts" has gone missing and left a powdery residue behind in the setting for the jewel. The implication in the book is clear; the "amethysts" were actually crystallized poison (the Strangler) and Sansa was used to smuggle the poison into the wedding. Littlefinger is the one who arranged for Sansa to be Olenna's "poison mule".

Why exactly LF wanted to use Sansa for this is still unclear to me, but I would guess that he was the one providing the poison and he suggested this means of delivery to Olenna because it would force Sansa to leave the city and go with Littlefinger once the deed was done -- obviously if Sansa were discovered to be the one who smuggled in the poison that killed Joff, she would be executed summarily as the Lannisters would never believe she had no knowledge of the "amethysts".

Thanks for the clarification!

Edited by ilhanicus

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i agree. littlefinger wanted something to force sansa's hand and having her connected to the murder is definitely good for keeping her close to him.

Thing is, the hairnet doesn't connect her to the murder anymore than her fleeing the city, because nobody knows about the hairnet, and the Tyrells couldn't bring it up without inviting questions about how they know that. Also, Sansa really did not need more incentive to leave the city than she already had.

To follow up on my earlier observation about Bran, what his part of the story really needs is some of the visual style of NBC's Hannibal. Not in terms of gore, mind you, but Bran's visions need to be trippy, beautiful and macabre in the same way (and on a TV budget); in the show as it stands they're super-mundane, mostly either him walking and/or seeing images of a bird squawking.

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What? That's where the poison came from. The poison is ingrained within the chalice itself after Olenna dropped it in . Sublimation friend.

And magically resublimates conveniantly whenever needed?

To ME that does not make any sense compared to putting poison in the drink before someone actually drinks it and then chokes to death right after he drank it. Otherwise the timing of the whole thing would be way to random to play out so perfectly when he drinks from the cup, Tyrion hands him. If there is too much conincidence I rather go with what makes way more sense.

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Thing is, the hairnet doesn't connect her to the murder anymore than her fleeing the city, because nobody knows about the hairnet, and the Tyrells couldn't bring it up without inviting questions about how they know that. Also, Sansa really did not need more incentive to leave the city than she already had.

If someone really wanted or needed Sansa to go down for the crime, all it would take is an anonymous tip to Cersei to check Sansa's jewelry, and Sansa would be dead meat. This might have happened if suspicion had fallen on Margaery instead of on Tyrion and the Tyrells needed a scapegoat, or at least that could be how Littlefinger sold the plan to Olenna. But I don't think LF expected that Sansa would actually go down for the crime -- making her an unwilling part of the plot was his way of binding Sansa to him with no other protectors. If she tries to leave him, LF can still drop the penny on her. I bet he could even produce the "jeweler" who "made the hairnet specifically on Lady Sansa's orders" before the wedding. No one would believe Sansa if she tried to explain how things really went down, not that I think Sansa would do that.

In any case the greatest effect is on Sansa herself: she's terrified to know that she was a pawn in this scheme and that it will come down on her if someone (like Petyr...) needs it to do so. This keeps her under LF's thumb quite nicely.

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