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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign


Mladen

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More links:

Westeros sexuality - The author wrote a lot of teen sexuality (under 16) and age gaps, here he is explaining this by stating sexual maturity = adult in Westeros:

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/

Modern sexuality - Age of consent is 15 (or younger) in a lot of European countries like Sweden, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Denmark, Greece, etc.; 16 in the UK, where the show is filmed; 16 in most US states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Age required to play explicit sexual/nude scenes on film - 18 for both actor and character (that's why GRRM said they aged Dany up in season 1). Age required to play romance, kissing, etc. - no requirement.

Sophie (she is now 18, an actor playing a fictional character) playing Sansa: 15 (she had her name day, and I'm seeing multiple sources saying 15 or 16 this season).

Rory (an actor playing a fictional character) playing Sandor: 30s (last time they specified his age, as of the pilot).

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I've gone back and forth on this, but I think TV

"Agency" is a pretty common buzzword when it comes to discussing Sansa's arc, as many Sansa fans believe that Sansa's journey is primarily or even entirely about her having more control over her life and exercising agency over her life choices: from powerless to powerful, pawn to player, etc. etc. It sounds delightfully grand and high-minded, but it's usually just an argument that gets trotted out to argue that a SanSan endgame or at least hookup is inevitable. The whole obsession with agency strikes me as a bit odd, frankly, especially when it comes to those fans who get so tied up in the idea of Sansa's agency that they discuss her as if she's a sentient being or even a beloved surrogate daughter and not as a fictional character dancing on GRRM's strings (and the less said about them, the better), but yeah, it's an often seen concept in these discussions.

I get that it's the buzzword. Just kinda made me snort, is all. Probably better if I'd just let it be, but I saw it meaning different things for different people (as you pointed out), and thought maybe some scrutiny of the usage could force some to better flesh out their thoughts.

To address the colonel: I don't think Sansa is a joke as a character because she's unable to magically acclimate herself to King's Landing and instantly "grow up" or something. That "shift" vulgarity is just a remnant of her upbringing.

Brienne is a freakish joke amongst them as well. But the jokes tell us more about those making the jokes. Keeping some grace in spite of it all is a plus to these ladies' characters.

Edit: deleting parts of quoted passages is hard to do on my phone. I got rid of some things I meant to keep, sorry. Hope it makes sense.

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Why? There's nothing sappy about that story. It's full of drama. Her first visit to the Godswood would have been excellent TV.

Well said. It would certainly have made better TV than the extended Pod brothel joke or some of the filler scenes they have given to Sansa in Season 3 like "porridge plague". Sansa going armed to the Godswood whilst dodging guards and then later at least harassing Dontos for them to escape earlier, would have shown her desperation to escape. Similarly even a scene of her smuggling her escape clothes to the Godswood and fooling Tyrion when he asks to join her would have shown her character development. Also the Purple Wedding would have come as more of a surprise as the anticipation would be will Sansa escape or not. Joff's death would then have come from completely out of left field. While most did not predict his death, most were expecting something to happen at the wedding.

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Sansa going armed to the Godswood whilst dodging guards and then later at least harassing Dontos for them to escape earlier, would have shown her desperation to escape.

This version of Sansa wasn't desperate to escape. Where would she go?

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Back to the she has nowhere to go in the seven kingdoms but chilling with the Lannisters after they waged war with her family, killed many of them, forcibly married her to one of them she finds repulsive, and lots more awful stuff in store for her lovely future, including a price on her head after she's set up for killing Joffrey... Seriously, where else would be better than that?

She was crying awfully hard when Littlefinger's ship sailed off, and she knew she had to marry Tyrion.

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I think that, from her perspective, there is no escape. She was crying when Littlefinger's ship sailed away because she'd seen both of her escape plans blown apart in quick succession. Upon Margaery's suggestion, she tried to make the best of her circumstances. Then her family was massacred. How much does she know about the Red Wedding? She knows how Robb and Catelyn died, and from what Tyrion said, she seems to know that Tywin had a hand in it, but does she know what happened to Edmure and Brynden? Maybe she thinks that they were killed, too. She might only be dimly aware that she has an aunt in the Vale - it certainly seemed to catch Arya off guard. To sum, she's got no means of escape, no family, and she's married into the family that destroyed hers. Under those conditions, wouldn't you find the outlook hopeless?

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The marriage was for heirs to take Winterfell. She rejected Tyrion sexually. She has no idea how long that reprieve will last, either from him or from the other Lannisters. She just told him to go to hell at breakfast. So she tries one time to get away, and it doesn't work, so she's going to give up? Why doesn't she just jump off a cliff then?

And you said she wasn't desperate to escape. She clearly was... Not seeing your point here.

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This version of Sansa wasn't desperate to escape. Where would she go?

This makes no sense. In the books it is certainly more obvious that she needs to get out of KL and she is debatably considering suicide if the Dontos plan fails. While in the show they have watered down how desperate her situation is, it is still obvious she would wish to get the hell out of KL as soon as possible regardless of where there was to go.

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I think book Sansa does have more agency than show Sansa, for the reasons already named. I always dreaded the fact they eliminated the Willas part of the book and replaced him with - of all people - Loras. It's just so unfair to her character. While book Sansa also fancied Loras and would have most likely jumped at the opportunity to marry him, still the way she taught herself to be excited about Willas did tell us a lot about her. And then her disappointment when she realized the Tyrells only wanted her for her rights. At that point she didn't want to be queen anymore, she didn't want a handsome gallant knight, she just wanted to be loved and to have a safe place she could call home. Show Sansa was deprived of this kind of emotions.

And then the way they made her marry Tyrion. Book Sansa had minutes to accept the situation and to realize Tyrion wasn't the worst husband she could've got. He offers her Lancel, but she chooses Tyrion. Again we are shown she's done with dreaming about pretty knights. Show Sansa has days to prepare for the wedding and that leads her to complain to Margaery that her husband to be is a dwarf.

Not kneeling - as bad as it made me feel for Tyrion - was an awesome Stark pride moment they probably took away from her to make her more likeable by the viewers. Her entire relationship with Tyrion is more sweet and understanding and a little too friendly. As much as it hurt seing them both so miserable in the books, it made more sense.

And then we have all the show viewers who can't understand why she didn't escape with the Hound since he asked so nicely. The entire SanSan storyline was made wrong from the beginning and I can see the show makers with severe headaches if GRRM decides to finally act on the romantic slash sexual tension between these characters. Show Sansa and show Sandor in a sexual scene? gah

I think the point in not having Sansa kneel is because she had days instead of minutes to prepare for the wedding. Tyrion let her know that this wedding was not his intention. She knew he wasn't the cause for her being forced into a marriage, and at the actual wedding she realized that humiliating Tyrion would make Cersei and Joffery happy. She decided to kneel to defy them in other ways. To wipe the smile off of their faces. Even in the books, as I recall, she regretted not kneeling because she saw that Cersei and Joff hated Tyrion.

I'm not saying she has to be bffs with Tyrion, but "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is kind of at play here imo.

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