(Book & Show Spoilers) Was it just me bothered by the Brienne & Cersei scene

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

When you don't have internal dialogue you need to spell this shit out. Just because you read the books and know Brienne and Jaime's complicated feelings, it doesn't mean the show shouldn't introduce the concept. And I'm sure the majority of the people complaining about this shit are the same people who claim the show makes Cersei a piece of furniture, yet when there's a scene of her using a bit of cunning and really reading someone's reactions/putting their back against a wall it's awful.

Also if you don't pick up on any romantic subtext toward each other in the books then honestly you just need to reread the chapters. Cersei also asked Brienne if she loved Jaime, not if she wanted to fuck him, so I'm not sure why people are on this high horse about how the show has reduced their relationship to lust or sex.

Gwendoline's reaction also appears to be "Uhh...WHAT? Wait, do I love him? Uhhh, this is the queen...FUCK." It appeared to me that Cersei opened her eyes a bit but she wasn't even sure, but didn't want to say no because she can't lie to save her life.

[~DarkHorse~]

With Shae/Tyrion and Jon/Ygritte going down the drain soon they've got to establish another romance (even if nothing becomes of it).

Many watchers want some form of romance or shipping in a show and GOT has a rather brutal record in that department...I think D&D are just trying to spice things up a bit.

[Le Cygne]

Sure, it's a dark story, but there's love in multiple plots. Love is a powerful motivator.

[HairGrowsBack]

With Shae/Tyrion and Jon/Ygritte going down the drain soon they've got to establish another romance (even if nothing becomes of it).

Many watchers want some form of romance or shipping in a show and GOT has a rather brutal record in that department...I think D&D are just trying to spice things up a bit.

They don't need to, because it's already in the books...

[Chebyshov]

I'm beginning to find Brienne really irritating. Gwendoline Christie just seems really wooden this season in particular. Cringeworthy. And yes, I didn't like it at all. Unnecessary to spell it out like that,

That's Brienne though...a great toe-headed plank. It was cringeworthy. I physically cringed as it was happening. But listening to Christie explaining how it's something Brienne's never really thought about and doesn't want to think about makes it more palatable.

I'm not sure why GRRM felt like we needed it, but maybe because we lack Brienne and Jaime's internal monologues. Still, it was pretty obvious they were growing on each other.

[Beric175]

The Brienne/Jaime stuff is there in the books and Brienne is awkward enough and shy enough in face of a figure of authority like Cersei to not say anything and she does not expect this accusation at all from the former queen regent of all people and so I wouldn't know what to say if someone just outright hurled that stuff at me. the best thing was to walk away from it in my opinion. Don't confirm anything, don't deny it, just ignore it.

[six]

You know, I'm actually rather surprised this thread has only popped up now. Let me guess; OP is a Jaime/Cersei shipper who didn't properly read Brienne's affc chapters?

Yeah, I didn't like it either as it didn't fit Brienne and her and Jamies storyline. from the books I also had a complitely different kind on connection in mind which may or may not be romantic.

Brienne always seemed tough lady with a sharp wit and tongue that it would be hard to get her off-guard but TV Briennes reaction to Cersey was just too vulnerable.

Brienne has a sharp wit and tongue? She doesn't, not in the books or the show. She's awkward, stilted and very vulnerable and she's this way as a result of the mockery and abuse she has suffered all the way through her life. Her own septa used to tell her she was slow, her possible suitors laughed in her face, she grew up thinking she wasn't worth much at all. The only times she's somewhat comfortable is around Jaime (especially in the show, less so in the books) and when she's fighting/being a knight. When it comes to words and interactions she's lost and very very vulnerable, so her reaction to Cersei's words was just perfect.

I know, it's like let's pretend this isn't happening, because we don't want it to happen. I want her/him to be with X or Y instead (usually someone they never met, or completely ruled out)...

I put this together a couple of years ago because I thought, well, maybe a little text will make the point, and we can move forward and talk about the rest of the story. Nope...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63197-odds-of-jaime-and-brienne-ending-up-together/page-13#entry3372068

Bless you for those quotes, as always!

With Shae/Tyrion and Jon/Ygritte going down the drain soon they've got to establish another romance (even if nothing becomes of it).

Many watchers want some form of romance or shipping in a show and GOT has a rather brutal record in that department...I think D&D are just trying to spice things up a bit.

Except is all over Brienne's chapters in affc, and grrm wrote them? This is like Loras/Renly all over again :lol:

That's Brienne though...a great toe-headed plank. It was cringeworthy. I physically cringed as it was happening. But listening to Christie explaining how it's something Brienne's never really thought about and doesn't want to think about makes it more palatable.

I'm not sure why GRRM felt like we needed it, but maybe because we lack Brienne and Jaime's internal monologues. Still, it was pretty obvious they were growing on each other.

This. That's how Brienne is, it's meant to be awkward.

As for why grrm felt we needed it, it's in the books so the question should be why wouldn't we need it?

[Mr Fixit]

I find much more disturbing that Sansa Stark is there and Brianne doesnt give a damn.

Now this is a fair point. It would've been nice to see Brienne approach Sansa for a moment or two. Since GRRM wrote this episode, I honestly don't know why that didn't happen.

[Natasi]

I loved the scene.

I think disbelievers just glazed over their interactions in the books and choose not to subscribe to the obvious for whatever reason. The most hilarious arguments made against their mutual attraction / admiration are: She's not hot enough for Jaime because Jaime only likes hot chicks. And Brienne only loves Renly (because you are not allowed to crush on more than one person in your lifetime, especially a person who you've interacted with on a deeper, more personal level than the distant idolatry of your first crush).

I love that Martin wrote this in and Jaime's glances at the two of them talking were priceless. He looked very uneasy, like he wanted to go over and save Brienne or distract Cersei. At this point he still wants Cersei, that really won't change until we get the burning of her letter once she is imprisoned by the Faith, but you can definitely see that Brienne will continue to be a pleasant addition in his life. The only person right now save Tyrion who respects him.

[six]

Now this is a fair point. It would've been nice to see Brienne approach Sansa for a moment or two. Since GRRM wrote this episode, I honestly don't know why that didn't happen.

Because they didn't want to upset the narrative too much. They wanted to bring Jaime and Brienne back early so they could interact with other characters, but keep the story as it's in the books. To have Brienne interact with Sansa would have upset it, so they avoided it.

It's poor planning if you ask me, and it makes no sense that Brienne didn't try to speak to Sansa if only to let her know how much Cat had tried and fought to get her daughters back,

[Mr Fixit]

It's poor planning if you ask me, and it makes no sense that Brienne didn't try to speak to Sansa if only to let her know how much Cat had tried and fought to get her daughters back,

I agree. It could very well have been a very poignant scene.

[Belisarius09]

It bothered me a bit, because I feel like at this point in the story Brienne's feelings for Jaime are just starting to develop. She should still have lingering feelings for Renly at this point. It really isn't cemented for me that Brienne loves Jaime until she has that dream where Renly transforms into Jaime after she's unconscious following her encounter with Biter.

IE: a few things need to happen first. 1. Jaime needs to honor his promise to Lady Stark by sending Brienne on her quest. 2. Jaime needs to give Brienne the valerian sword.

In my book its too soon to jump to "Brienne loves Jaime." Those feelings need to take more time to develop.

[Natasi]

Now this is a fair point. It would've been nice to see Brienne approach Sansa for a moment or two. Since GRRM wrote this episode, I honestly don't know why that didn't happen.

I can see George going, why did you send them to King's Landing? Oh well, gotta work with it. And intentionally avoids Brienne talking to Sansa because it wouldn't work with the plot down the road.

The other possibility is that there was such a scene, but it was cut. Sansa is very delicate right now. Married to the family who killed hers, the laughing stock of said family at that. Even if Brienne offered her sympathies I think Sansa would only give her a modest thanks at this point. She might even be edgy enough to toss an accusation that Brienne should have stayed and protected Cat from what happened instead of trying to save Sansa (which to Sansa, seems impossible at this point).

[HairGrowsBack]

No way the Lannisters would let her near Sansa , they must have some clue as to why she's here in the first place . I do agree though that they should've adress this properly.

[six]

It bothered me a bit, because I feel like at this point in the story Brienne's feelings for Jaime are just starting to develop. She should still have lingering feelings for Renly at this point. It really isn't cemented for me that Brienne loves Jaime until she has that dream where Renly transforms into Jaime after she's unconscious following her encounter with Biter.

IE: a few things need to happen first. 1. Jaime needs to honor his promise to Lady Stark by sending Brienne on her quest. 2. Jaime needs to give Brienne the valerian sword.

In my book its too soon to jump to "Brienne loves Jaime." Those feelings need to take more time to develop.

And how would you write her feelings developing, since she's to leave KL soon? This is a case where the show had to just go for it and make it obvious as there are no other ways to develop it. Brienne is not going to start to talk her feelings for Jaime while on the road with Pod, right? We're not in her head, like in the books.

[Belisarius09]

And how would you write her feelings developing, since she's to leave KL soon? This is a case where the show had to just go for it and make it obvious as there are no other ways to develop it. Brienne is not going to start to talk her feelings for Jaime while on the road with Pod, right? We're not in her head, like in the books.

I think I would have written a line for Brienne where she says something to Cersei like "I admire Jaime as a knight". Something simple like that. Full blown "Oh shit, I love him and I'm being confronted about it," seems too rushed.

And then when she's leaving KL she can say something to Jaime like, "You've really proven me wrong, you do have honor." And then when she's traveling the rode looking for a her sister a maid of three and ten, she can confess to her fellow travelers that she met a true knight, and she admires him. And then the dream sequence and then her defending Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and the BWB. Tada... developed over time.

[Mr Fixit]

I think I would have written a line for Brienne where she says something to Cersei like "I admire Jaime as a knight". Something simple like that. Full blown "Oh shit, I love him and I'm being confronted about it," seems too rushed.

But she doesn't admire Jaime as a knight. Not really.

And then when she's leaving KL she can say something to Jaime like, "You've really proven me wrong, you do have honor."

Now this really is a sledgehammer if I ever saw one.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

To be honest if Brienne, who is known to have served Renly and Catelyn, both traitors, goes up and starts speaking to Sansa at the royal table about how she swore a vow to return her to her mother there would be no quicker way to a black cell. To have her go up and speak with her at the wedding is pretty stupid. However, she should've at least been seen worrying or fussing over Sansa, perhaps exchanging a look or something to remind us why Brienne is even there in the first place. I suppose they did address that briefly in the scene with Jaime but Brienne's #! priority should be Sansa and currently it just seems like she's on vacation or something.

[six]

I think I would have written a line for Brienne where she says something to Cersei like "I admire Jaime as a knight". Something simple like that. Full blown "Oh shit, I love him and I'm being confronted about it," seems too rushed.

And then when she's leaving KL she can say something to Jaime like, "You've really proven me wrong, you do have honor." And then when she's traveling the rode looking for a her sister a maid of three and ten, she can confess to her fellow travelers that she met a true knight, and she admires him. And then the dream sequence and then her defending Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and the BWB. Tada... developed over time.

It would be ooc for Brienne to speak about her feelings though, with anyone. It's much more in character for her to have it pointed out (and Cersei wasn't really pointing it out imo, she was lashing out at Brienne because she's a lady who's free not to act like one and that annoys her, and she just happened to be right about Brienne's feelings for Jaime) by someone else, and be completely speechless and mortified at the thought that it might be true and has indeed developed much deeper feelings for this annoying dude she was paired with.

To be honest if Brienne, who is known to have served Renly and Catelyn, both traitors, goes up and starts speaking to Sansa at the royal table about how she swore a vow to return her to her mother there would be no quicker way to a black cell. To have her go up and speak with her at the wedding is pretty stupid. However, she should've at least been seen worrying or fussing over Sansa, perhaps exchanging a look or something to remind us why Brienne is even there in the first place. I suppose they did address that briefly in the scene with Jaime but Brienne's #! priority should be Sansa and currently it just seems like she's on vacation or something.

At the table yes. What they should have done is swap the Margaery/Brienne scene in episode 1, for a scene with Sansa. They didn't have to do much with it, just have Brienne telling Sansa her mother had fought and fought, and she's so sorry. It would have also resolve the problem that we saw no reaction from Brienne about Cat's death, which is silly because Brienne and Cat will meet again...

[Will&Chrismom]

I think I would have written a line for Brienne where she says something to Cersei like "I admire Jaime as a knight". Something simple like that. Full blown "Oh shit, I love him and I'm being confronted about it," seems too rushed.

And then when she's leaving KL she can say something to Jaime like, "You've really proven me wrong, you do have honor." And then when she's traveling the rode looking for a her sister a maid of three and ten, she can confess to her fellow travelers that she met a true knight, and she admires him. And then the dream sequence and then her defending Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and the BWB. Tada... developed over time.

I highly, highly doubt we are going to get any dream sequences for Brienne. I'm happy to be wrong, but Jaime's rather major dream about Brienne before he went back to Harrenhal was cut from the show, we've seen no dreams from any of the other characters and even Dany's visit to the House of the Undying is not so much a dream as a hallucination/prophecy of sorts. I don't see the writers giving any other characters but Bran any dream sequences, as a means of streamlining the narrative for viewers who don't read the books. If lots of characters have prescient dreams then, from a TV viewer perspective, it sort of takes the steam out of Bran being a Warg and something of a seer.

I don't think anything was off base in doing a big, unsubtle reveal of Brienne's feelings this early on. As for interacting with Sansa, I'm not sure how that could have fit in. Perhaps the Cersei/Brienne scene could have been restaged with Brienne making to approach Sansa and being interrupted by Cersei, and then being so taken aback by Cersei's accusation that she, Brienne, sort of stumbles off without speaking to Sansa as intended. That's really the only scenario I think that could have logically worked, and in any case, Brienne might well have taken to heart Jaime's comments from last week's ep about Sansa being safe in King's Landing, at least for now. Brienne is stubborn and pushy but not stupid.

Vis a vis Brienne and Margaery--this to me was a very obvious expository scene meant to cut out the later confrontation she has with Loras and having to spend time in a black cell before Loras is convinced Brienne didn't kill Renly. This, plus Brienne approaching Margaery and Joffrey so that Margaery could declare out loud that Brienne didn't kill Renly, removes the necessity of Brienne proving her innocence on that score. Something that will be missed, but that doesn't contribute to a streamlined narrative on the show; at this point, the main issue has to be getting Brienne going on her mission to find Sansa.