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Alia of the knife

R+L=J v.79

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Lol, I don't think that Aemon meant it quite so literally :D

Agreed.

(Aemon: NIghts Watch advocate for tough love, lol). :P

But, I think what the "death" does is that it serves to relieve him of the last vestages of naivety about the NW and what they have become in trying to kill him, so that he can be released from those bonds.

They are the ones who release him.

His death/coma may also allow him to "see" within- the past, present and future, but I can envision him rising much the same way that Dany did as their journeys are very much parallel to one another.

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v 73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v 74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v 75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v 76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v. 78" (thread seventy-eight)

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Agreed.

(Aemon: NIghts Watch advocate for tough love, lol). :P

But, I think what the "death" does is that it serves to relieve him of the last vestages of naivety about the NW and what they have become in trying to kill him, so that he can be released from those bonds.

They are the ones who release him.

His death/coma may also allow him to "see" within- the past, present and future, but I can envision him rising much the same way that Dany did as their journeys are very much parallel to one another.

I would love it if Jon had a dream/vision of the events at the Tower of Joy and/or the tourney at Harrenhal.

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His death/coma may also allow him to "see" within- the past, present and future, but I can envision him rising much the same way that Dany did as their journeys are very much parallel to one another.

Like... a funeral pyre?

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Like... a funeral pyre?

Do Starks normally get cremated? I know that's the Targ tradition, but I thought Starks were buried in the crypts (obviously he's a Snow so wouldn't necessarily happen one way or the other, but just curious)

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Jon is no Stark in the eyes of the people at Castle Black.



In times of wight attacks and powerhungry red priestesses, your bet may be to get cremated... although ice cells were mentioned many times and snow drifts even more often.


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With the danger of death rising again, it might become standard for the Night's Watch to burn their dead. And with Melissandre present, the chance of that happening increases even more.


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I would love it if Jon had a dream/vision of the events at the Tower of Joy and/or the tourney at Harrenhal.

Thats possible, and certainly along the same types of familial visions Dany had, but he won't understand them without explaination.

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Do Starks normally get cremated? I know that's the Targ tradition, but I thought Starks were buried in the crypts (obviously he's a Snow so wouldn't necessarily happen one way or the other, but just curious)

I think the NW would burn him to keep him from turning as much as to get rid of his body.

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Thats possible, and certainly along the same types of familial visions Dany had, but he won't understand them without explanation.

Hopefully Howland Reed will somehow be his guide to what he envisions. Similar to the Three Eyed Crow for Bran.

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Ah, the tower of joy dream, see the links in my signature, to go with the FAQs above.


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His death/coma may also allow him to "see" within- the past, present and future, but I can envision him rising much the same way that Dany did as their journeys are very much parallel to one another.

I agree that he'll go through a catabasis. He's in that portion of the monomyth. I disagree that it will be done the same way that Dany did. She didn't actually die, or visit the underworld, just rode out a fire. If we're doing apples to apples between Jon's funeral pyre and Drogo's, then I say that Jon is the equivalent of the dragon eggs that hatched, not Dany.

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With the danger of death rising again, it might become standard for the Night's Watch to burn their dead. And with Melissandre present, the chance of that happening increases even more.

:agree:

Now I'm getting this irresistible image of Jon suddenly coming to in the middle of flames and quickly taking flight with his pants burning on his, er, backside, in the best cartoonish tradition :D

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I don't think they'll burn him, as that's already what semi-happened with Dany, and burning a body/corpse is kind of permanent.



There might be people around who'll protect his body, and like Bran, he might not be dead but still breathe while healing.



First thing happening at the Wall post-stabbing is probably not them lighting a fire.



Time will tell, of course. ;)


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I agree that he'll go through a catabasis. He's in that portion of the monomyth. I disagree that it will be done the same way that Dany did. She didn't actually die, or visit the underworld, just rode out a fire. If we're doing apples to apples between Jon's funeral pyre and Drogo's, then I say that Jon is the equivalent of the dragon eggs that hatched, not Dany.

I agree with that analogy, and yeah, exactly pretty much the way I think it plays out.

I see this as Jons tranformation into what he is as much as who he is.

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:agree:

Now I'm getting this irresistible image of Jon suddenly coming to in the middle of flames and quickly taking flight with his pants burning on his, er, backside, in the best cartoonish tradition :D

See I am thinking it will be more of an ice birth than Dany's fire birth. I think those ice cells are where Jon is headed. He will be reborn from the ice much the same as Dany was reborn from the fire.

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See I am thinking it will be more of an ice birth than Dany's fire birth. I think those ice cells are where Jon is headed. He will be reborn from the ice much the same as Dany was reborn from the fire.

I like this. But it also makes me think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA1N9PQW5g

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A ned+Lyanna thread just started... ugh

OMg it's from that NedFlanderStark a-hole, he is a fake fake fake troll. he makes up the MOST ridiculous threads in the world. Why hasn't he been kicked off yet? I reported him, Sick of it.

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