R+L=J v.79

[FittleLinger]

To me the evidence (how much weight you give it is up to you) seems to be that Rhaegar must have given the order that if he fails/falls (or perhaps when, as he had clearly had some powers of foresight) they are to keep his child a secret from everyone...they would have no reason not to allow Eddard to see his sister even with the child, they are all considered some of the most honorable and good men in the entire realm, and I think any of them would have wanted to allow any brother to see their dying sister.

The only way it makes sense for them to fight instead of offering him safe passage up the tower is to keep anyone from knowing of the childs existence, they would have no reason to fear Ned Stark harming the child if they escorted him to see his sister (and they also would have known about Ned Stark, they didn't insult him at all during the encounter).

This is war, and Ned is a general of the rebel army and right hand to Robert. They can't just ignore those facts on the premise of "This guy seems ok".

ETA: I'd even go as far as to say that Ned was amongst the top list of people who should not be allowed near the heir (Robert, Tywin, Arryn being the others). Also, Lyanna's fear left her eyes when he promised. She wasn't sure Ned would not give the baby away to Robert, and I don't think Ned was sure what to do either. Untill the promise, that is.

[FrozenFire3]

This is war, and Ned is a general of the rebel army and right hand to Robert. They can't just ignore those facts on the premise of "This guy seems ok".

ETA: I'd even go as far as to say that Ned was amongst the top list of people who should not be allowed near the heir (Robert, Tywin, Arryn being the others). Also, Lyanna's fear left her eyes when he promised. She wasn't sure Ned would not give the baby away to Robert, and I don't think Ned was sure what to do either. Untill the promise, that is.

They can't even ignore those facts on the premise of "This guy seems ok and he sure is in for high treason". 'Cause that is what Ned did, hiding the only surviving Rhaegar's heir to Robert.

[FittleLinger]

They can't even ignore those facts on the premise of "This guy seems ok and he sure is in for high treason". 'Cause that is what Ned did, hiding the only surviving Rhaegar's heir to Robert.

Yeah, that's a great point FrozenFire. Actually, Ned's reputation might be working against him at that moment. He is known to be honorable and doing his duty. His duty is to give the child to Robert. It's simple logic, really. After all, there is nothing half as terrifying as a truly just man.

Not that they would need a more complex logic than "You simply don't give away the heir to the rebel commander". But even if they did, the above applies.

[Juggler]

Ned was present when Tywin presented Robert the bodies of Elia and her children so they couldn't take any chances that Ned would simply let Jon live. He is after all, Robert's best friend. That's why Lyanna's "promise" that Ned makes is so important and haunts him till the end of his life

And that isn't relevant at all, because for one, there would have been insults flung at him if they believed he had anything to do with it, but they were stoic and reserved with him, they gave no indication that they were eager for a fight with him, just that they knew they were going to.

But the reason it's not relevant is that an unarmed Ned can be in the room with Lyanna and baby king with an armed Arthur Dayne, there is no threat at that time, the only threat he posed if they gave him passage was discovery.

Lyanna made him promise to keep the secret and take Jon, the Kingsguard were dead and could no longer protect Jon or hide him, she was dying and made him promise to do what they had already intended to do (also after Rhaegar dying if she had of lived you would assume she would have ended up going home to Winterfell anyway).

[Juggler]

This is war, and Ned is a general of the rebel army and right hand to Robert. They can't just ignore those facts on the premise of "This guy seems ok".

ETA: I'd even go as far as to say that Ned was amongst the top list of people who should not be allowed near the heir (Robert, Tywin, Arryn being the others). Also, Lyanna's fear left her eyes when he promised. She wasn't sure Ned would not give the baby away to Robert, and I don't think Ned was sure what to do either. Untill the promise, that is.

See my post above about it not mattering...it's not like they would be like "oh sure, come on in sword in hand", that isn't how safe passage to visit a "captive"/dying relative works.

Lyanna's fear left her eyes because she knew he would be safe, there was no one else but Ned who could, and she knew what she was asking him to do, it's not about lying to Robert, it's about his honor and lying to his wife, it was Catelyn that he really struggled with....the secret he kept from Robert is that he knew Lyanna didn't love him, and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he didn't like Robert going on about how they loved each other, not because of Jon. (well that is my take on it anyway).

[Ygrain]

See my post above about it not mattering...it's not like they would be like "oh sure, come on in sword in hand", that isn't how safe passage to visit a "captive"/dying relative works.

Lyanna's fear left her eyes because she knew he would be safe, there was no one else but Ned who could, and she knew what she was asking him to do, it's not about lying to Robert, it's about his honor and lying to his wife, it was Catelyn that he really struggled with....the secret he kept from Robert is that he knew Lyanna didn't love him, and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he didn't like Robert going on about how they loved each other, not because of Jon. (well that is my take on it anyway).

Keeping Jon secret from Robert (and Lannisters) plays a huge role. Consider this passage:

“Why should Tyrion Lannister want Bran dead? The boy has never done him harm.”

“Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?” Littlefinger asked. “The Imp would never have acted alone.”

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that.”

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

“Most likely the king did not know,” Littlefinger said. “It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see.”

Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher’s boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word.

If Robert never poised danger to Jon, Sansa's pleading remininding Ned of Lyanna makes no sense. What Sansa is pleading is:

"Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady."

[Sir Dominus]

And that isn't relevant at all, because for one, there would have been insults flung at him if they believed he had anything to do with it, but they were stoic and reserved with him, they gave no indication that they were eager for a fight with him, just that they knew they were going to.

But the reason it's not relevant is that an unarmed Ned can be in the room with Lyanna and baby king with an armed Arthur Dayne, there is no threat at that time, the only threat he posed if they gave him passage was discovery.

Lyanna made him promise to keep the secret and take Jon, the Kingsguard were dead and could no longer protect Jon or hide him, she was dying and made him promise to do what they had already intended to do (also after Rhaegar dying if she had of lived you would assume she would have ended up going home to Winterfell anyway).

You bring up some valid ifs and buts. But if's and buts were candy and nuts, then everyday would be Halloween. Martin wrote the events the way he did and no amount of arguing is going to make GRRM change how it is written. Case closed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Keeping Jon secret from Robert (and Lannisters) plays a huge role. Consider this passage:

“Why should Tyrion Lannister want Bran dead? The boy has never done him harm.”

“Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?” Littlefinger asked. “The Imp would never have acted alone.”

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that.”

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

“Most likely the king did not know,” Littlefinger said. “It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see.”

Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher’s boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word.

If Robert never poised danger to Jon, Sansa's pleading remininding Ned of Lyanna makes no sense. What Sansa is pleading is:

"Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady."

Sometimes your posts give me goosebumps :) Excellent connection!!

[FittleLinger]

See my post above about it not mattering...it's not like they would be like "oh sure, come on in sword in hand", that isn't how safe passage to visit a "captive"/dying relative works.

Lyanna's fear left her eyes because she knew he would be safe, there was no one else but Ned who could, and she knew what she was asking him to do, it's not about lying to Robert, it's about his honor and lying to his wife, it was Catelyn that he really struggled with....the secret he kept from Robert is that he knew Lyanna didn't love him, and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he didn't like Robert going on about how they loved each other, not because of Jon. (well that is my take on it anyway).

Ned was outraged with Robert's reaction towards the deaths of the Targaryen children. This implies he was surprised - the Robert he knew would never not blink an eye let alone encourage the deaths of children. Arguably, if this incident had not happened, the case can be made that Ned could and probably would have handled Jon to Robert.

What good would it make to let him visit her? Both parties know that they want different things and the situation cannot be settled.

[Juggler]

Ned was outraged with Robert's reaction towards the deaths of the Targaryen children. This implies he was surprised - the Robert he knew would never not blink an eye let alone encourage the deaths of children. Arguably, if this incident had not happened, the case can be made that Ned could and probably would have handled Jon to Robert.

What good would it make to let him visit her? Both parties know that they want different things and the situation cannot be settled.

What good would it be? how about letting him see his dying sister? letting him talk to her, Ned didn't have to hand the boy to Robert, it isn't treason, that is his nephew who has done nothing to Robert nor did Robert issue an order for him to be delivered, Ned was there to rescue his sister, her telling him she doesn't need rescuing potentially would have saved his life, saved the lives of the good men around him (she knew those men too) and the good men of the Kingsguard, the secret is the only reason not to allow access, which is all my point ever was, they always intended for Jon to be kept secret if Rhaegar lost the war.

[The guy from the Vale]

The sheer knowledge of Jon's existence is too much to entrust Ned with, in the KG's perspective. That's why he can't see or even talk to Lyanna. But that does not necessitate them getting an explicit order from Rhaegar to keep the child secret; the situation demands it stays that way. Once Ned, as a rebel commander, knows about the baby, he has to die.

As for Ned committing treason, of course Ned did. Harboring the heir to the Targaryen dynasty is treason even if Robert didn't request Ned to hand him over (as he couldn't, not knowing about his existence in the first place). And that's what makes Ned great: In order to protect innocent children, he committed treason at least twice.

[MtnLion]

The sheer knowledge of Jon's existence is too much to entrust Ned with, in the KG's perspective. That's why he can't see or even talk to Lyanna. But that does not necessitate them getting an explicit order from Rhaegar to keep the child secret; the situation demands it stays that way. Once Ned, as a rebel commander, knows about the baby, he has to die.

As for Ned committing treason, of course Ned did. Harboring the heir to the Targaryen dynasty is treason even if Robert didn't request Ned to hand him over (as he couldn't, not knowing about his existence in the first place). And that's what makes Ned great: In order to protect innocent children, he committed treason at least twice.

:agree: say it again.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The sheer knowledge of Jon's existence is too much to entrust Ned with, in the KG's perspective. That's why he can't see or even talk to Lyanna. But that does not necessitate them getting an explicit order from Rhaegar to keep the child secret; the situation demands it stays that way. Once Ned, as a rebel commander, knows about the baby, he has to die.

As for Ned committing treason, of course Ned did. Harboring the heir to the Targaryen dynasty is treason even if Robert didn't request Ned to hand him over (as he couldn't, not knowing about his existence in the first place). And that's what makes Ned great: In order to protect innocent children, he committed treason at least twice.

And depleted his marriage and honor for 14 years. He was a great guy :)

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he was raised a Stark and called a Stark by Eddard.

[Fire Eater]

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he was raised a Stark and called a Stark by Eddard.

Because his father was a Targaryen, and he was a trueborn son. Partlineal rules requires him to take his father's name. He was raised a Snow and called a Snow by Eddard. That still doesn't change his true identity.

[The guy from the Vale]

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he was raised a Stark and called a Stark by Eddard.

When did Ned call Jon a Stark? He called him his blood (relative) but never a Stark iirc.

As to the actual point, Jon can be a Targaryen because he is the son of a Targaryen. He also doesn't seem to resent the Targs all that much. His childhood idols included Daeron I, for example... and he seemed quite fond of Maester Aemon.

[horizon]

When did Ned call Jon a Stark? He called him his blood (relative) but never a Stark iirc.

As to the actual point, Jon can be a Targaryen because he is the son of a Targaryen. He also doesn't seem to resent the Targs all that much. His childhood idols included Daeron I, for example... and he seemed quite fond of Maester Aemon.

Bran does resent Rhaegar though. So Jon must have heard the stories of a Targaryen raping a Stark as well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Bran does resent Rhaegar though. So Jon must have heard the stories of a Targaryen raping a Stark as well.

Is Bran showing actual resentment, or is he a 7-year-old simply parroting back stories that he's heard? I'd say it's the latter.

[Ygrain]

Nothing much happening of late, so I'll throw in a little musing.

Generally, it is expected that HR will play some role in revealing R+L. I am wondering, though, if he would necessarily know about Jon being legitimate. He wasn't in the room when Ned and Lyanna were talking, so unless Ned told him or he figured out of what the KG had said, he may be in the dark. The same applies for Wylla - while she almost certainly knows of Jon's parentage, she need not necessarily know about the marriage.

So, I was thinking: what if the secret indeed died with Ned, but GRRM might still pull some ace out of his sleeve to get a dead character talking?

One option might be through Bran remembering the details of the dream about Ned in the crypts - so far, he recalls only that it concerned Jon, that it made Ned sad, and that the dream was disturbing. Another option may also feature Bran, and Ned's bones. We have been told multiple times that bones remember, and so do weirwoods. In ADWD, we see the greenseer skeletons encased in weirwood roots and learn that after their death, their essence goes into the weirnet. Now, Ned's bones are, hopefully, safely stashed with Howland, and I wonder very much if some kind of crannogmen magic might access the memories, or whether attaching the bones to the weirnet might work.

/well, yeah, crackpotting for lack of anything better to do, so bear with me :)/

[The guy from the Vale]

Howland was a witness of the talk with the KG though. If we can deduce the implications of the KG's statements, he should be as well.