R+L=J v.79

[WhiteOwl18]

Which part do you mean?

unusual but not without precedent, or he wed one out of duty and the other out of desire?

As I was reading it I just instinctively replaced the names and it made perfect sense.

[Ygrain]

As I was reading it I just instinctively replaced the names and it made perfect sense.

Exactly. - It was a rhetorical question, both parts fit :) I'd say it's not exactly a subtle hint at what happened, rather the contrary :D

[FittleLinger]

I think that this can bring us an interesting roundabout. Many of us think that Rhaegar was trying to procreate Aegon and his sisters with his own children. What he did, however, is he recreated them by himself. If this is right, then this would mean that the important part was not that they were his siblings, but that they were his wives - one for duty, one for desire. So he unintentionally did what he was trying to intentionally do with his children. I think that fits Martin's style and his explanation of the nature of prophecy.

[Chebyshov]

Oh good, I was worried this forum was going to go one day without a Rhaegar or Lyanna-bashing thread.

[Ygrain]

I think that this can bring us an interesting roundabout. Many of us think that Rhaegar was trying to procreate Aegon and his sisters with his own children. What he did, however, is he recreated them by himself. If this is right, then this would mean that the important part was not that they were his siblings, but that they were his wives - one for duty, one for desire. So he unintentionally did what he was trying to intentionally do with his children. I think that fits Martin's style and his explanation of the nature of prophecy.

/waves/

Exactly. - May I point out how this keeps coming back to the sun and its two moon wives?

[The guy from the Vale]

Days were better when that didn't happen.

I just can't remember that time :bawl:

[FittleLinger]

/waves/

Exactly. - May I point out how this keeps coming back to the sun and its two moon wives?

Yeah, you're great at adding layers and nuances.

I might be mixing up the legends, but weren't the dragons born from this union?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hey Everyone!!

As per Ran's suggestion, I made this thread for us in the show section to discuss R+L=J hints from the show, and any other popular theories backed up on HBO. That way we dont have to have Spoiler discussions on here that seem to bother people :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107636-book-spoilers-rlj-and-other-theories-on-hbo/

[Ygrain]

Oh good, I was worried this forum was going to go one day without a Rhaegar or Lyanna-bashing thread.

It has been some time since the last one, I've forgotten how it goes.

Yeah, you're great at adding layers and nuances.

I might be mixing up the legends, but weren't the dragons born from this union?

I believe someone else pointed that out before me.

Yes, that's the one how the dragons were born.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't think that Schmendrick put it like that in his theory though, right? (Rhaegar marrying both moons/nissas) I mean, not exactly? Though I have to admit it's been a while since I read it, so I might be wrong.

A pity that new thread is about everything.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In the World of Ice and Fire excerpt, something else caught my attention that might be in favor (a little) for R+L

Lord Aenar Targaryen seems to have had multiple wives as well. So yet another Targaryen who practiced polygamy, making it less and less an acception if Rhaegar had practiced polygamy as well

It isn't anything major, and it doesn't have anything to do with Jon, but it's something.

[Han Snow]

I might be seeing too much here, but I just read the World of Ice and Fire sample on GRRM's website, and one paragraph in particular really caught my attention:

Aegon [meaning Aegon the Conqueror] had two trueborn siblings; an elder sister, Visenya, and a younger sister, Rhaenys. It had long been the custom amongst the dragonlords of Valyria to wed brother to sister, to keep the bloodlines pure, but Aegon took both his sisters to bride. By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya

; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

Like I said, I may be wrong, but I think this might be telling us something about an aspect of R+L=J that some people are still skeptical about...

Pamdarabambambam!!! :cheers:

Gonna read the sample now!

[WhiteOwl18]

In the World of Ice and Fire excerpt, something else caught my attention that might be in favor (a little) for R+L

Lord Aenar Targaryen seems to have had multiple wives as well. So yet another Targaryen who practiced polygamy, making it less and less an acception if Rhaegar had practiced polygamy as well

It isn't anything major, and it doesn't have anything to do with Jon, but it's something.

Good catch!

[J. Stargaryen]

Wylla Manderling... the wet nurse Wylla,

Nice find, perhaps Wylla is named after the wet-nurse Wylla?

Thanks.

I don't think Wylla Manderly is named after the wet nurse, but rather it's a hint for the audience. It combines three elements related to Jon; Wylla the wet nurse, Promise me, Ned, and You know nothing.

There is also the parallel that circles around that particular promise. The Manderlys fled North when they were hunted and hated, and the Starks took them as their men, pretty much like Ned did with Jon. Also, Wyman tells Wylla to keep shut about the whole thing (the promise and their loyalty).

About Lyanna (Stark), there is also the thing that she has a statue. Only Lords of WF get statues in the crypts (and she was not even a lady of WF). The argument that Ned loved her dearly and that's why he built her a statue holds water, but there could be more to it. He could've made it partially because she was a queen for a time.

The other Northerner, also a small girl, who tells Stannis to piss off and talks about Kings (of the North) is Lyanna (Mormont). Coincidence? Yeah, probably, but it's worth thinking about.

Nope. Not a coincidence. Two young girls, named Lyanna and Wylla, sticking up for the Starks. Coincidentally -- or not -- Jon is now the head of House Stark, according to Robb's will. Whether he accepts that or not remains to be seen. But yeah, it's not a coincidence. I don't think GRRM really does coincidences that big.

I might be seeing too much here, but I just read the World of Ice and Fire sample on GRRM's website, and one paragraph in particular really caught my attention:

Aegon [meaning Aegon the Conqueror] had two trueborn siblings; an elder sister, Visenya, and a younger sister, Rhaenys. It had long been the custom amongst the dragonlords of Valyria to wed brother to sister, to keep the bloodlines pure, but Aegon took both his sisters to bride. By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya

; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

Like I said, I may be wrong, but I think this might be telling us something about an aspect of R+L=J that some people are still skeptical about...

You're right that it's yet another argument in favor of Rhaegar marrying Lyanna as his second wife. Targaryen polygamy was never a regular occurrence, so it's not a big surprise that it hasn't happened in a couple of centuries, that we know of.

It has been some time since the last one, I've forgotten how it goes.

I believe someone else pointed that out before me.

Yes, that's the one how the dragons were born.

Yes, I wonder who that could be? ;) I called it Astronomy and Polygamy.

I don't think that Schmendrick put it like that in his theory though, right? (Rhaegar marrying both moons/nissas) I mean, not exactly? Though I have to admit it's been a while since I read it, so I might be wrong.

A pity that new thread is about everything.

No, he didn't, but there is more than one thing going on in that passage. I had discussed it with him in PM a while back. He agrees that it also points to Rhaegar taking two wives, which I believe he had planned to present in part three, in addition to the interpretation he provided in part two.

[Han Snow]

^What happened to schmendrick? Is that part 3 coming still?

[J. Stargaryen]

^What happened to schmendrick? Is that part 3 coming still?

He hasn't signed on in over a month. He mentioned before that he was busy with work, so he probably just doesn't have the time to get distracted at the moment. That is to say, I'm not really sure. I hope he comes back soon. I think his analysis is as good as anyone's on this site. And some of his finds in that thread were amazing.

[Ygrain]

Yes, I wonder who that could be? ;) I called it Astronomy and Polygamy.

Sorry! I find myself totally unable to remember who came up with what.

[Chebyshov]

Sorry! I find myself totally unable to remember who came up with what.

You guys referring to this?

He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss t he sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return

[J. Stargaryen]

You guys referring to this?

He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss t he sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return

Yes. but also the following paragraph.

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.”

- AGoT, Daenerys III

If the moon is the wife of the sun, and there once was two moons... polygamy. :)

[Disputatious]

In the World of Ice and Fire excerpt, something else caught my attention that might be in favor (a little) for R+L

Lord Aenar Targaryen seems to have had multiple wives as well. So yet another Targaryen who practiced polygamy, making it less and less an acception if Rhaegar had practiced polygamy as well

It isn't anything major, and it doesn't have anything to do with Jon, but it's something.

Interesting: where did you find that? Also, it could have something to do with Jon: I remind you there have been claims hereabouts that Jon is natural born because Rhaegar was still married to Elia.

Nevermind, I missed the post above about this.