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[Book Spoilers] Shae


zombree

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I began this conversation wondering how you got around the contradiction in logic - you've clearly demonstrated the answer.

By the way, sentencing guidelines don't apply when the authorities are ignorant to the fact that a crime even occurred, and if violation of his admonishment was tantamount to running a red light than it was an idle threat.

Can you show where the contradiction is please. You have claimed it several times but not demonstrated it.

As for the the ignorance of the authorities part, yep agree totally but I fail to see how that is an issue.

I absolutely disagree it was an idle threat. As I have already explained, he has had his rights to Casterly Rock revoked already and then demonstrated that a punishment for transporting a whore would either be so insignificant in comparison it would be pointless and petty or would be so large that the scale of the punishment would just not fit the crime.

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He can't. If you don't just agree with him, he'll just start making cryptic statements like the one above, as if he was right all along. Its a pattern.

Your not being smart enough to understand something doesn't make it cryptic.

Can you show where the contradiction is please. You have claimed it several times but not demonstrated it.

As for the the ignorance of the authorities part, yep agree totally but I fail to see how that is an issue.

I absolutely disagree it was an idle threat. As I have already explained, he has had his rights to Casterly Rock revoked already and then demonstrated that a punishment for transporting a whore would either be so insignificant in comparison it would be pointless and petty or would be so large that the scale of the punishment would just not fit the crime.

Tywin cared enough to make the demand that Tyrion not take the whore to KL, Tywin made no effort whatsoever to ascertain the identity of the whore (ergo he made absolutely no effort to enforce the demand), and Tyrion has defied the demand completely without consequence (we know that Tywin hasn't simply ignored it as a lesser offense because even at this point in the show he has absolutely no way of even knowing that he'd been defied).

A demand that you can't enforce and for which there is no penalty for defying is an idle threat. Tywin doesn't make idle threats (contradiction). If Tywin cared enough to take time away from his war effort to make the threat it doesn't make sense that he would have absolutely no interest in enforcing it (contradiction).

My favorite part about this is that, with your current take on the matter, you're making the argument that his demand was an idle threat and you don't even seem to realize it (if he made the demand, knows he was defied, and now doesn't feel it's important enough to warrant a punishment, that is an idle threat).

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My favorite part about this is that, with your current take on the matter, you're making the argument that his demand was an idle threat and you don't even seem to realize it (if he made the demand, knows he was defied, and now doesn't feel it's important enough to warrant a punishment, that is an idle threat).

Denying Tyrion Casterly Rock, IS part of the punishment, as many have stated above. Its likely the one Tywin has been after all along: more reasons to deny Tyrion his birthright. But I think a big part of Tywin's game is just making Tyrion as miserable as possible, out of spite.

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Tywin cared enough to make the demand that Tyrion not take the whore to KL, Tywin made no effort whatsoever to ascertain the identity of the whore (ergo he made absolutely no effort to enforce the demand), and Tyrion has defied the demand completely without consequence (we know that Tywin hasn't simply ignored it as a lesser offense because even at this point in the show he has absolutely no way of even knowing that he'd been defied).

First you say

" Tywin made no effort whatsoever to ascertain the identity of the whore "

Then you say

" even at this point in the show he has absolutely no way of even knowing that he'd been defied"

I agree absolutely with the second statement. Because he did not know he had been defied, why on Earth would he waste any energy whatsoever attempting to ascertain the identity of someone he didn't know existed? Why would the police go looking for a bank robber when there is no evidence a bank robbery took place? I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

A demand that you can't enforce and for which there is no penalty for defying is an idle threat. Tywin doesn't make idle threats (contradiction). If Tywin cared enough to take time away from his war effort to make the threat it doesn't make sense that he would have absolutely no interest in enforcing it (contradiction).

So your first assertion here is:

Statement A: A demand that you can't enforce and for which there is no penalty for defying is an idle threat.

Statement B: Tywin doesn't make idle threats

Statement C: Therefore, contradiction

Statement D: it doesn't make sense that he would have absolutely no interest in enforcing it

Statement E: Therefore, contradiction

I accept your definition at point A as being a reasonable definition

I accept the claim at point B as being a reasonable representation of Tywin Lannister's personality

I reject your conclusion at point C because it is a logical fallacy.

You have not demonstrated that the threat was idle because Tywin was unable to enforce it and that there would have been no penalty for it. Further, you are claiming Tywin has no interest in enforcing it. This is completely unrelated to the two previous assertions and is therefore irrelevant.

I accept the claim made at point D, yes, as written, that makes no sense

I reject your conclusion made at point E because it is a false dichotomy.

You have not demonstrated that is the only option. I have already demonstrated there are other options - punishment already meted out for other offences that make any new punishment pointless due to insignificance and other reasons previously demonstrated.

My favorite part about this is that, with your current take on the matter, you're making the argument that his demand was an idle threat and you don't even seem to realize it

This is a strawman. You are attempting to misrepresent my position.

Firstly, he will only discover he was defied once he questions Shae.

Tyrion has already been punished for taking whores to Tywin's bed.

Tyrion is currently facing capital punishment for regicide.

The offence of transportation of whores is quite clearly insignificant compared to the second and in all reasonable likelihood far less than the first

if he made the demand, knows he was defied, and now doesn't feel it's important enough to warrant a punishment, that is an idle threat

This is in part a 'moving the goal posts' fallacy. You laid out the definitions of 'idle threat' above and are now attempting to slip in a new definition of the term here. Your argument is internally inconsistent because the conclusion made here is not supported by your assertions above and I have also refuted many of those assertions.

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Lets say you rob a bank (transport whores) - penalty 10 years once convicted

Lets say you then become a serial killer (whores in Tywin's bed) - penalty execution once convicted

Now, the second crime is discovered and you are convicted - ie, dead

Then the first crime is discovered. A determination is made that to carry out the sentence would be either so insignificant to be a waste of resources. This does not mean the threat was idle - as per the very definition you asserted - quote "A demand that you can't enforce and for which there is no penalty for defying is an idle threat."

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In the books it was readily apparent that Shae was using Tyrion because he was a wealthy Lannister, but in the HBO show I couldn't really tell because either the acting or the writing was off. It seems in the show that she really loves Tyrion.

Based on my feelings toward book Shae, I really hope she never leaves and the plot plays out the way it does in the books. I think, however that Tywin has her killed and the Tyrion kills Tywin for that reason. D&D have made every effort to simplify this story for the non book reader audience, and considering the books' complexity, I have trouble faulting them for that. It's like comparing peaches and carrots

Completely agree with this. I really don't like Shae in the book, and her eventual betrayal was not overly surprising.

However I don't see the Shae of the series betraying Tyrion to extent she will have to too match the books.

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here are my thoughts on Shae if anyone cares:



I don't see anything at all wrong with the portrayal of Shae in Episode 1 and 2. Sorry, there I said it. She's a scared girl way out of her depth. Her only prestige is being Tyrion's personal mistress, and she knows it. "I am your whore, and when you are tired of fucking me, I will be nothing." -3x07 That same scene Tyrion gives her a gold chain and says she can buy a ship with it (a planted seed of doubt that grows in 3x10 with Varys, instilling further fear in Shae's mind). Same scene, she offers again (2x10) they go to Essos. In her mind, it's a huge insult to her that offer is flung back at her - but without Tyrion in 3x10.



4x01 she tries to win him back the way they got together - with sex. It's her last power and when he denies her even that, no matter what his reasons are, not only is she afraid he's sending her away forever, but she's afraid that he doesn't even find her attractive. It has nothing to do with Sansa. It's more "what am i doing wrong, baby??" than any "oh no, Sansa is better than me!" Her whole dialogue that people interpret as jealousy over the Sansa marriage in Season 3 is her trying to prove to Tyrion that he doesn't love Sansa (why else complain about a fact so obvious to them both?), she tries to prove that he CAN fight Tywin and Cersei. Really, jealousy over Sansa? Shae was a whore, she's used to being tossed around - which is why her lines are not jealousy nor stupidity (that's just plain out of character, given the TV interpretation). Shae is a fighter, a lover, a protector.



4x02 she accuses he's afraid of Tywin and Cersei, and he looks away. Tyrion was a real asshole in that scene, shouting "You're a whore" in her face. I don't agree with despising Shae that she "should've seen through that Tyrion was trying to protect her." Those things are VERY hurtful to hear no matter what.



IMO, this still isn't enough for her to willingly betray Tyrion. Before 4x01 and 4x02, she'd probably let them kill her first. But under intense threat and behind closed doors with Cersei and Tywin and with Sansa MIA, she'll more than ease into testifying against Tyrion for her own life - the only thing she has at that moment of coercion. It'll be awful when Tyrion kills her over killing him for breaking up. Awful.



my 2c.


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Agree with Floop (page 2). Shae in the TV series has taken on, by and large, the role of Tysha from the books, and I don't think that Tyrion will hold any resentment against her, even if she testifies against him in court. Rather, I think that Tywin will cruelly deport her from King's Landing but Tyrion will somehow find out about this, and then Tywin and Tyrion will have an exchange in the privy akin to this:



Tyrion: "What did you do with Shae?"


Tywin: "I sent her away." + a few asinine remarks.


Tyrion: "Sent her away where?"


Tywin: "Wherever whores go."


(crossbow thrums)


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I really thought the show was setting up the Shae/Tyrion story nicely, until the scene in this episode. It made me cringe. I agree with whoever said that was the worst acting in the entire series, to date. Plus, in the story, she did what she did because you found out, that deep down, she is just a whore. With this scene in this episode, if she does what she does in the book, it's because Tyrion hurt her feelings, and made her cry. It's a very bad change in my opinion. An uncharacteristically bad change. I must say this is the first show change that I fully disagree with. Every other show change has been somewhat necessary, but this is just a really missed opportunity for D&D I think.


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