Frumpus Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Yeah I really don't see them deviating from the books with regards to Shae. They have set her up perfectly to follow the course set for her in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floop Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 They could pull it off by: Step 1 - Shae testifies against Tyrion Step 2 - Tyrion finds Shae in Tywin's bed. Problem solved I'm aware of what happens in the books, but I don't think that would override the months of close relations that Tyrion has had with a legitimately loving character. Also, he sent her away and called her a whore in the last episode. If she were to strike back against him, she would even have a motive for it - and not the same motive she had in the book (greed and basically being an empty character that was never really loyal) - and a character as smart as Tyrion would not be blind to the fact that he would have caused her treachery against him with his words and abandonment of her. For him to murder her knowing that is a stretch. Also, it wouldn't make much sense to put her in Tywin's bed, unless we are to learn that she has always been a character that she has not appeared to be for her entire run on the show, which would also be quite a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frumpus Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I'm aware of what happens in the books, but I don't think that would override the months of close relations that Tyrion has had with a legitimately loving character. Also, he sent her away and called her a whore in the last episode. If she were to strike back against him, she would even have a motive for it - and not the same motive she had in the book (greed and basically being an empty character that was never really loyal) - and a character as smart as Tyrion would not be blind to the fact that he would have caused her treachery against him with his words and abandonment of her. For him to murder her knowing that is a stretch. Also, it wouldn't make much sense to put her in Tywin's bed, unless we are to learn that she has always been a character that she has not appeared to be for her entire run on the show, which would also be quite a stretch. So you're basically saying that GRRM screwed up when he depicted exactly that in the books? What are you trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I'm aware of what happens in the books, but I don't think that would override the months of close relations that Tyrion has had with a legitimately loving character. Also, he sent her away and called her a whore in the last episode. If she were to strike back against him, she would even have a motive for it - and not the same motive she had in the book (greed and basically being an empty character that was never really loyal) - and a character as smart as Tyrion would not be blind to the fact that he would have caused her treachery against him with his words and abandonment of her. For him to murder her knowing that is a stretch. Also, it wouldn't make much sense to put her in Tywin's bed, unless we are to learn that she has always been a character that she has not appeared to be for her entire run on the show, which would also be quite a stretch. I don't know, being condemned to die by a woman you tried repeatedly to save but wouldn't listen, and then finding her in the bed of your father who has done nothing but chastise you your entire life, and threatened to hang that same whore causing you months of grief and concern...That could set someone of. People have killed for much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floop Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 So you're basically saying that GRRM screwed up when he depicted exactly that in the books? What are you trying to say? I believe I said it in my two posts. The show has taken a much different approach with Shae and with Tyrion and Shae's relationship. They would be screwing things up on the show if things played out as they happened in the book at this point. Many of those who have read the books seem to have a difficult time distinguishing between book Shae and the vastly different show Shae. Remember, this is the Shae that helped Sansa hide the fact that she was able to bear children. This is the Shae that needed to be close to Tyrion, not out of greed, but out of what genuinely appeared to be love. There is also a wit and cleverness to this Shae, although it was mainly only present in her introductory episode. From this good-hearted, loving, fairly smart character stems a much different relationship between her and Tyrion, and it makes sense because it seems as if he has legitimately met his match. This isn't the relationship, born of denial and make-believe, between a john and his prostitute that exists in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 So you're basically saying that GRRM screwed up when he depicted exactly that in the books? What are you trying to say? That Shae being a good person and really loving Tyrion and being loyal to him COMPLETELY CHANGES the entire dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 That Shae being a good person and really loving Tyrion and being loyal to him COMPLETELY CHANGES the entire dynamic. Not really. Tyrion was in love with her in the book, so his feelings for her haven't changed. The conversation they have in this ep is almost word for word what Tyrion is thinking for a book and a half when it comes to Shae. The fact that she actually does love him and despite that STILL testifies against him and STILL sleeps with his father for money would give him more reason than the book to do what he does. In the book he knows in the back of his mind that this was always a possbility, in the show he doesn't think she could ever do something like that. Not to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Not really. Tyrion was in love with her in the book, so his feelings for her haven't changed. The conversation they have in this ep is almost word for word what Tyrion is thinking for a book and a half when it comes to Shae. The fact that she actually does love him and despite that STILL testifies against him and STILL sleeps with his father for money would give him more reason than the book to do what he does. In the book he knows in the back of his mind that this was always a possbility, in the show he doesn't think she could ever do something like that. Not to him. I guess I don't see it that way. I found his murder of Book Shae, a wholly unsympathetic character with zero redeeming qualities to be disgusting and unjustified. Him murdering TV Shae, the goody goody whore with a heart of gold who loves him so much she refused to leave KL will be worse by about a factor of 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frumpus Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I believe I said it in my two posts. The show has taken a much different approach with Shae and with Tyrion and Shae's relationship. They would be screwing things up on the show if they played things out as they happened in the book at this point. Many of those who have read the books seem to have a difficult time distinguishing between book Shae and the vastly different show Shae. Remember, this is the Shae that helped Sansa hide the fact that she was able to bear children. This is the Shae that needed to be close to Tyrion, not out of greed, but out of what genuinely appeared to be love. There is also a wit and cleverness to this Shae, although it was mainly only present in her introductory episode. From this good-hearted, loving, fairly smart character stems a much different relationship between her and Tyrion, and it makes sense because it seems as if he has legitimately met his match. This isn't the relationship, born of denial and make-believe, between a john and his prostitute that exists in the book. It never occurred to you even once that everything TV Shae did was mostly just an act? Not that it matters, because we'll never know whether Shae was working for Tywin from the start or whether she was simply coerced into testifying against Tyrion. He kills her with the limited knowledge he has about what really happened and there's no going around that. Her actions on the show and in the book are almost identical despite the extra layer of sympathy she appears to generate on the tv show. To be fair, there's still the chance that they change things up on the tv show and have Shae being executed on Tywin's orders, rather than Tyrion killing her. It could be part of the whitewashing show Tyrion has gotten so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Jennings Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 i think the show Shae takes way too many liberties for being a whore. I thought she was much more submissive in the books when in the show she is a very strong, defiant character. They've done a good job setting her up to follow the books path. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floop Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I guess I don't see it that way. I found his murder of Book Shae, a wholly unsympathetic character with zero redeeming qualities to be disgusting and unjustified. Him murdering TV Shae, the goody goody whore with a heart of gold who loves him so much she refused to leave KL will be worse by about a factor of 100. That's a really good point. His killing of book Shae didn't sit particularly well with me either regardless of how she was drawn, and yes, his killing of show Shae would be much, much worse. It never occurred to you even once that everything TV Shae did was mostly just an act? The thought has crossed my mind because I have read the books, but were I a person that only watched the show, the possibility would have never crossed my mind. In my opinion, they have given no indication that she has been insincere in her words and actions on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floop Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Repeat post. Unsure of how to delete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Jennings Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I guess I don't see it that way. I found his murder of Book Shae, a wholly unsympathetic character with zero redeeming qualities to be disgusting and unjustified. Him murdering TV Shae, the goody goody whore with a heart of gold who loves him so much she refused to leave KL will be worse by about a factor of 100. Tyrion found book shae naked in his fathers bed after she just testified against him (which would have had him put to death) and mocked him in front of every one. Not unjustified. If TV Shae goes the same path - not unjustified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Tyrion found book shae naked in his fathers bed after she just testified against him (which would have had him put to death) and mocked him in front of every one. Not unjustified. If TV Shae goes the same path - not unjustified. It's a matter of opinion, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floop Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Tyrion found book shae naked in his fathers bed after she just testified against him (which would have had him put to death) and mocked him in front of every one. Not unjustified. If TV Shae goes the same path - not unjustified. Murders are seldom unmotivated, but opinions about what does and does not justify such an extreme and barbaric act will vary from person to person. His fate was sealed without her testimony, and adultery and mockery hardly justify murder, even in a fictional world. Plus, he had some understanding of who and what she was. He shouldn't exactly have been blindsided by all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Murders are seldom unmotivated, but opinions about what does and does not justify such an extreme and barbaric act will vary from person to person. His fate was sealed without her testimony, and adultery and mockery hardly justify murder, even in a fictional world. Plus, he had some understanding of who and what she was. He shouldn't exactly have been blindsided by all of it. I think the term 'justified' is being thrown around too loosely. I don't consider killing people in war 'justified' personally, however it is understandable and common in this world. Most of the death and destruction in this world isn't 'justified'. However, with that being said I think it is understandable from a character perspective that he kills shae for what she did in the setting we've been presented, right after being told that his father paid a group of men to rape his first wife. People have died for WAY less, and even character favorites have taken lives for less, including Ned, Stannis, Robert, all of the Lannisters, Arya, the Hound... It's a cruel world where people are rewarded with death for treachery, which is exactly what she and Tywin got. Even with this more sympathetic Shae I still don't find the act to be all that terrible in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 I'm aware of what happens in the books, but I don't think that would override the months of close relations that Tyrion has had with a legitimately loving character. Also, he sent her away and called her a whore in the last episode. If she were to strike back against him, she would even have a motive for it - and not the same motive she had in the book (greed and basically being an empty character that was never really loyal) - and a character as smart as Tyrion would not be blind to the fact that he would have caused her treachery against him with his words and abandonment of her. For him to murder her knowing that is a stretch. Also, it wouldn't make much sense to put her in Tywin's bed, unless we are to learn that she has always been a character that she has not appeared to be for her entire run on the show, which would also be quite a stretch. Look I agree that changing Shea into a character that loved Tyrion causes issues. GRRM said he was concerned about how that can play out as well. And yet her betrayal then his 'crime of passion' are still explainable, despite being messier than the book scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iknownothingjonsnow Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Nothing about Shae's current circumstance makes any sense. Tywin already knew who she was, otherwise he wouldn't have instructed Tyrion not to bring her to KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Worst fear: D&D turns Shae into Tysha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Nothing about Shae's current circumstance makes any sense. Tywin already knew who she was, otherwise he wouldn't have instructed Tyrion not to bring her to KL. Knowing Tyrion had a whore before he went to KL =/= he knew what said whore looked like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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