[Book Spoilers] Shae

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Ros was sent to Joffrey to die by Littlefinger, who knew that she wasn't Tyrion's paramour. Ros died due to being a bad investment for LF. Tywin has different motives depending on who he's threatening. If he's making a threat to someone outside his family, he has a motivation to follow up on the threat, and keep up his reputation. Threatening Tyrion is likely a different animal. He's doing it more out of hatred and spite for his son, than for any political gain. He may figure that the threat itself is enough to make his son's life miserable. For the time being, at least. He had many other fish to fry at that time, and his lack of discovering Shae sooner may simply show where this matter falls on his list of priorities, rather than any incompetence on his part. I think it nicely contrasts Tywin's family dynamics with his political strategy. There's actually not necessarily any contradictions here.

Perhaps, but does that not fall under the textbook definition of an 'idle threat'?

Tywin was testing Tyrion.

Tyrion failed the test.

That's the contradiction. Tywin thinks that Tyrion failed the test because of Ros, while remaining completely ignorant to the truth that Tyrion actually failed the test because of Shae. If the test matters enough to issue it, and Tyrion's failure matters enough to punish him for it, then why does the validity of the answer not matter? And if it does matter, why would he depend on clearly unreliable sources for the proof when he could easily have gotten a definitive answer while the whore in question was right under his nose?

He found out about Shae and learned of her importance while prosecuting a war - why would it not have been equally as easy (easier, I'd argue) to learn her identity? The more significant he considered the test, the less his carelessness is explicable.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

Perhaps, but does that not fall under the textbook definition of an 'idle threat'?

Sure, I think it would. An idle threat doesn't necessarily mean a threat without any purpose at all. An idle threat can be performed to scare someone or make them perform certain actions, or just generally cause misery. I think that's what most idle threats would be meant for: intimidation and menacing. It would be rare for someone to make a threat with no purpose whatsoever.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

He found out about Shae and learned of her importance while prosecuting a war - why would it not have been equally as easy (easier, I'd argue) to learn her identity? The more significant he considered the test, the less his carelessness is explicable.

He initially found out about Shae while at a war camp, where everyone was packed close together and easily spied on. And he had reason to keep many eyes on the camp at that time, for fear of traitors or spies from the Wolf's side. So its not surprising that someone reported to him that his son had a whore. Back at King's Landing was a different matter, the spies themselves have agendas and loyalties are more convoluted. In addition, as others have said above, Tywin's motivation to immediately follow through on threats to Tyrion may have been low, and he may have been waiting to see what Tyrion did of his own accord. There seems to be no real contradiction here. As for the test not having validity.. it did have validity. Tywin already hated Tyrion, he already was loath to leave Casterly Rock to him, the idea of Tyrion disobeying him about the whore just adds another reason for him to deny Tyrion his birthright. He would naturally grasp at the idea that Ros was his whore, without bothering to verify it further. It was what he wanted to hear.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

There arent that many places they can go with this. Either she will be intercepted by Tywin or Bronn/Varys betrayed him. Those are really the only options if they want to continue with the original story.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

There arent that many places they can go with this. Either she will be intercepted by Tywin or Bronn/Varys betrayed him. Those are really the only options if they want to continue with the original story.

Or she changes her mind and comes back to KL of her own accord. But if I had to guess, it was either Bronn or Varys or Brarys that betrayed him.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

That's the contradiction. Tywin thinks that Tyrion failed the test because of Ros, while remaining completely ignorant to the truth that Tyrion actually failed the test because of Shae. If the test matters enough to issue it, and Tyrion's failure matters enough to punish him for it, then why does the validity of the answer not matter? And if it does matter, why would he depend on clearly unreliable sources for the proof when he could easily have gotten a definitive answer while the whore in question was right under his nose?

He found out about Shae and learned of her importance while prosecuting a war - why would it not have been equally as easy (easier, I'd argue) to learn her identity? The more significant he considered the test, the less his carelessness is explicable.

I am trying to process what you are saying here, so I have a few questions.

"Tywin thinks that Tyrion failed the test because of Ros, while remaining completely ignorant to the truth that Tyrion actually failed the test because of Shae." OK, I am following your chain of thought thus far.

"If the test matters enough to issue it, and Tyrion's failure matters enough to punish him for it, then why does the validity of the answer not matter? " I don't say it doesn't matter. There was a whore in Tyrion's bed while he was Hand. Tywin punished him for it then said "If I find any more whores in your bed I will hang them" This means, 'if you do it again I will exact more punishment.'

"And if it does matter, why would he depend on clearly unreliable sources for the proof when he could easily have gotten a definitive answer while the whore in question was right under his nose?" Please explain the easy way he could gained the definitive answer.

"He found out about Shae and learned of her importance while prosecuting a war - why would it not have been equally as easy (easier, I'd argue) to learn her identity?" No. He found out about Shae at the breakfast before the wedding. If he did think that Ros was the whore from the army camp as you have previously claimed, I don't understand why you also claim he simultaneously knew that Shae was also the whore from the army camp.

" the less his carelessness is explicable." I am yet to see any demonstration of carelessness on Tywin's part. It is inexplicable because it has not been demonstrated to exist.

Tywin issued a rule.

Tyrion broke the rule.

Tywin punished him and issued a new rule

Tyrion broke the new rule

Tywin is took action as soon as he was made aware.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

If Tywin punished him simply for having a whore in his bed, then he didn't punish him for bring the whore to KL, which means his threat was completely idle.

Tyrion has had thousands of whores. How could anyone even ascertain that this particular whore was significant to him without learning what she remotely looked like, and why would that not be easily remedied by Tywin? He could have had someone fetch the whore who has been by Tyrion's side every waking moment in camp, he could have summoned Tyrion's companion Bronn for a description, he could have walked into Tyrion's fucking tent and seen her with his own eyes, he could have easily done a hundred different things.

Tywin issued a rule. (don't take that whore to KL)

Tyrion broke the rule. (he took the whore to KL)

Tywin punished him for something else completely. (he brought a whore to his bed)

Either violation of the rule didn't matter (toothless), he cared enough to issue it but not enough to accurately enforce it (capricious), or he mistakenly enforced the wrong rule (incompetent).

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

I think, however that Tywin has her killed and the Tyrion kills Tywin for that reason.

Literally my biggest fear for the season. This. Because...

D&D have made every effort to simplify this story for the non book reader audience, and considering the books' complexity, I have trouble faulting them for that. It's like comparing peaches and carrots

Up to and including the stripping away of any moral complexity Tyrion could have had. One of the more interesting and psychologically complex characters in the series and a true expert at fudging the numbers when doing moral calculus, BookTyrion is fascinating to analyze and try to understand. It can be challenging at times to find yourself cheering him on for something that was kind of a dick move or even outright cruel. That's part of the character's appeal.

Sadly this guy doesn't seem to be in any of my GOT files. But if anyone sees him please let me know.

[David Selig]

Shae isn't that relevant to the plot, and her character has been changed a lot from how it was in the books. The writers could easily remove her participation in the trial and her servicing Tywin.

Book Shae, if told that Tywin was going to kill them and offered a bunch of diamonds, would have taken the diamonds and have run away. All she ever wanted was money, a fancy manse and a high class husband, and Varys was offering her all that.

Not just Book Shae, pretty much anyone would have done so in her place. Stay and risk her life just so she can sneak around and have sex with Tyrion from time to time, or take the fortune, leave and enjoy a rich life. Show Shae's behaviour is completely idiotic.

[Ser Lepus]

Not just Book Shae, pretty much anyone would have done so in her place. Stay and risk her life just so she can sneak around and have sex with Tyrion from time to time, or take the fortune, leave and enjoy a rich life. Show Shae's behaviour is completely idiotic.

TV Shae lacks even a basic sense of self-preservation, and if she comes back to KL, she will have proven to be outright suicidal. It would be difficult to justify her return, unless Bronn has captured her and sold her to Cersei, or something (she was carrying a bag of diamonds, Cersei would pay a nice sum for her, and Bronn is well, Bronn).

In addition to being difficult to justify her return to KL without making her mentally challenged, the fact that she seems to care for Tyrion and doesn't seem so greed-driven as Book Shae, will make very difficult to shoehorn her into the same role Book Shae plays during the trial and Tywin's assassination. And I very much doubt they are going to make Tyrion strangle her, since he would look like a complete monster.

So I think they will remove her from the TV series for now. The writers may make her meet Tyrion again in Essos.

[AuntDany]

Between the whitewashing of Show Tyrion (Frumpus quote) and added depth and independence of Show Shae (Floop quote), I think there's no chance the show has her betray Tyrion and him avenging himself by killing her.

And yes it's still a possibility that Show Shae could stand it for Book Tysha (Fool of a Book quote). Tysha and what happened to her is an important part of Tyrion's future characterization and plot (sharp guilt, searching), so it needs to be on the show in some form...and since Tyrion called Shae a whore and gave her a cold sendoff, she could cause him feelings of guilt...

...between book Shae and the vastly different show Shae. Remember, this is the Shae that helped Sansa hide the fact that she was able to bear children. This is the Shae that needed to be close to Tyrion, not out of greed, but out of what genuinely appeared to be love. There is also a wit and cleverness to this Shae, although it was mainly only present in her introductory episode...

...To be fair, there's still the chance that they change things up on the tv show and have Shae being executed on Tywin's orders, rather than Tyrion killing her. It could be part of the whitewashing show Tyrion has gotten so far...

Worst fear: D&D turns Shae into Tysha

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

If Tywin punished him simply for having a whore in his bed, then he didn't punish him for bring the whore to KL, which means his threat was completely idle.

You are ruling out the even more obvious option. Tywin took even more offence to a Tyrion bringing a whore to Tywin's bed and this overruled the original rule. I reject the claim this made the original rule 'idle'.

How could anyone even ascertain that this particular whore was significant to him

The significance of the whore is actually quite irrelevant given what Tyrion did was seen as a greater offence.

and why would that not be easily remedied by Tywin? He could have had someone fetch the whore who has been by Tyrion's side every waking moment in camp, he could have summoned Tyrion's companion Bronn for a description, he could have walked into Tyrion's fucking tent and seen her with his own eyes, he could have easily done a hundred different things.

* He could have had someone fetch the whore who has been by Tyrion's side every waking moment in camp, - Sure he could have done that, but then there would have been no point in giving Tyrion any responsibility on the matter. Also, your statement is hyperbole. She was absolutely not by his side every waking moment.

* he could have summoned Tyrion's companion Bronn for a description - sure he could have done that, but he gave an order and expected it to be carried out and it became irrelevant anyway when Tyrion committed a greater offence

* he could have walked into Tyrion's fucking tent and seen her with his own eyes, - Sure he could have done that, but see the answer to the previous point

* he could have easily done a hundred different things. - See answer to both previous points

Tywin issued a rule. (don't take that whore to KL)

Tyrion broke the rule. (he took the whore to KL)

Tywin punished him for something else completely. (he brought a whore to his bed)

OK, I see where your three options come from now but I do not accept they are the only options.

Either violation of the rule didn't matter (toothless), he cared enough to issue it but not enough to accurately enforce it (capricious), or he mistakenly enforced the wrong rule (incompetent).

or, Tyrion committed a greater offence.

Consider this

Tywin: Do not commit manslaughter

Tyrion then commits murder

Tywin punishes Tyrion for murder

This does not make the prohibition on manslaughter idle, toothless, capricious or incompetent. He was punished for having any whore in Tywin's bed and having any whore in his bed after he lost rights to the Rock. The fact we know it was the same whore from the camp is just simply irrelevant.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

This does not make the prohibition on manslaughter idle, toothless, capricious or incompetent. He was punished for having any whore in Tywin's bed and having any whore in his bed after he lost rights to the Rock. The fact we know it was the same whore from the camp is just simply irrelevant.

By your analogy, Tyrion committed both manslaughter and murder, manslaughter was the only 1 of those 2 which was explicitly forbade, and Tywin still has no fucking clue that he committed it. When a crime goes completely ignored and unpunished, is that a good or bad job by the authorities?

[Newstar]

Sibel Kekilli did an interview very recently which seemed to confirm implicitly that they're going the hell hath no fury like a woman scorned route with Shae.

[Konradsmith]

Will she only return for ep. six in the trial or does anyone think we'll see her between now and then?

[Scrambled Aegon]

I think what I've always thought -- Shae still betrays Tyrion, Tyrion still kills her for it, and it still wouldn't be wholly out of character at all.

But now they have changed her reason for betraying him. In the books, it's just that she was a whore finding a better client -- something I think would have been believable in the show up to this point. Now, though, her betrayal is personal - it's as revenge for Tyrion sending her away. It makes her a more sympathetic character. I'm not sure how I feel about that at all.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

By your analogy, Tyrion committed both manslaughter and murder, manslaughter was the only 1 of those 2 which was explicitly forbade, and Tywin still has no fucking clue that he committed it. When a crime goes completely ignored and unpunished, is that a good or bad job by the authorities?

Where I am, we have double jeopardy. You can't get tried twice for the same offence. It is either manslaughter or murder, not both. We also have concurrent sentencing, not consecutive.

Tywin will have a clue about it when he questions Shea, but given that Tyrion committed a greater offence taking the camp whore with him just pales into insignificance... there the tiny little matter of Tyrion currently being charged with regicide.

"When a crime goes completely ignored and unpunished, is that a good or bad job by the authorities?" Can be a good job if the scale difference of the offences means pursuing the smaller one results in a pointless punishment and a waste of time and resources.

Also, calm down with the language please

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Where I am, we have double jeopardy. You can't get tried twice for the same offence. It is either manslaughter or murder, not both. We also have concurrent sentencing, not consecutive.

Tywin will have a clue about it when he questions Shea, but given that Tyrion committed a greater offence taking the camp whore with him just pales into insignificance... there the tiny little matter of Tyrion currently being charged with regicide.

"When a crime goes completely ignored and unpunished, is that a good or bad job by the authorities?" Can be a good job if the scale difference of the offences means pursuing the smaller one results in a pointless punishment and a waste of time and resources.

Also, calm down with the language please

In this case they are 2 completely separate acts, so double jeopardy doesn't apply. You obviously can't accidentally kill somebody and then later murder the same person. If you run over 1 person with your car then get out and shoot another in the head, you'll be charged with both murder and manslaughter - unless the authorities are unable to connect you to the first crime. Issuing a more severe punishment to you for murder doesn't explain away the other dead body, and unless you live in Pyongyang that wouldn't pass for justice in your jurisdiction either.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

In this case they are 2 completely separate acts, so double jeopardy doesn't apply. You obviously can't accidentally kill somebody and then later murder the same person. If you run over 1 person with your car then get out and shoot another in the head, you'll be charged with both murder and manslaughter - unless the authorities are unable to connect you to the first crime. Issuing a more severe punishment to you for murder doesn't explain away the other dead body, and unless you live in Pyongyang that wouldn't pass for justice in your jurisdiction either.

And in that scenario the murder might result in a 12-20 and the vehicular manslaughter might result in 3-6. But consecutive sentencing rules would mean the maximum would still be 20. If there were additional offences like running a red light then the $300 fine would be waived given its insignificance.

In Tyrion's case, he has had his rights to the Rock removed. He was 'rewarded' with Master of Coin. He would be devastated if he lost that job. He was also rewarded with Sansa Stark - the love of his life. Losing her and not having to deal with all those friendly and not resentful Northmen would well... you get the picture. Any punishment that could be brought for bringing the camp whore to KL would either be pointless due to its insignificance to subsequent punishments or be out of scale with the crime (perhaps disownment - no more money, gelding, blinding etc).

Given that he is currently facing the death sentence for regicide and Shae is in a position to plea-bargain her way out of her own punishment, then hitting him with the '$300 fine for the red light' (aka taking the whore to KL) is irrational, petty and asinine.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

And in that scenario the murder might result in a 12-20 and the vehicular manslaughter might result in 3-6. But consecutive sentencing rules would mean the maximum would still be 20. If there were additional offences like running a red light then the $300 fine would be waived given its insignificance.

In Tyrion's case, he has had his rights to the Rock removed. He was 'rewarded' with Master of Coin. He would be devastated if he lost that job. He was also rewarded with Sansa Stark - the love of his life. Losing her and not having to deal with all those friendly and not resentful Northmen would well... you get the picture. Any punishment that could be brought for bringing the camp whore to KL would either be pointless due to its insignificance to subsequent punishments or be out of scale with the crime (perhaps disownment - no more money, gelding, blinding etc).

Given that he is currently facing the death sentence for regicide and Shae is in a position to plea-bargain her way out of her own punishment, then hitting him with the '$300 fine for the red light' (aka taking the whore to KL) is irrational, petty and asinine.

I began this conversation wondering how you got around the contradiction in logic - you've clearly demonstrated the answer.

By the way, sentencing guidelines don't apply when the authorities are ignorant to the fact that a crime even occurred, and if violation of his admonishment was tantamount to running a red light than it was an idle threat.