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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

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Book fans, We can use this to discuss the show and how it pertains to our favorite theories in the books. In other words; theories backed up on HBO :)


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There is nothing to talk about, as I said in one of the previous post, even Jon Snow is the son of R+L, it will not change a thing, Jon Snow is still a bastard.


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I thought Joffrey's little show was better than the dwarf jousters in the book. I can't believe they had Renly riding an undressed man! You could see how much he was pissing everyone off at the wedding. loved it!!


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HBO's R+L=J hints:


  1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned
  2. When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.
  3. The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)
  4. Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"
  5. Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?


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HBO's R+L=J hints:

  1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned

When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.

The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)

Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"

Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

Well there are many subtle hints, like in season 2, every shot of the IT there is a stained glass window directly behind it with a blue rose right in the middle. We dont only have to discuss R+L=J here, anything of relevance is fine. But on the R+L=J book thread, we were catching fire for continually bringing up the show and having spoiler tags, Ran told me to start a thread in the show section where we can freely discuss anything, so that's what this is :)

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HBO's R+L=J hints:

  1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned

When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.

The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)

Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"

Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

I think you got everything, but we as book readers know these are hints towards R+L=J, while show-only people have to dig deep to find this stuff, and then most of them probably won't even be able to put the pieces together.

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There is nothing to talk about, as I said in one of the previous post, even Jon Snow is the son of R+L, it will not change a thing, Jon Snow is still a bastard.

Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were married of course ;)

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Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were married of course ;)

No, they can not marry unless Rhaegar got a divorce first, all the hints in both book and TV show could only prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, but still can not change the fact that Jon Snow is a bastard regardless

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No, they can not marry unless Rhaegar got a divorce first, all the hints in both book and TV show could only prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, but still can not change the fact that Jon Snow is a bastard regardless

Then why have other Targ Kings married numerous wives?

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No, they can not marry unless Rhaegar got a divorce first, all the hints in both book and TV show could only prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, but still can not change the fact that Jon Snow is a bastard regardless

The Faith of the Seven may technically prohibit polygamy, but it also technically prohibits incest. The Targaryens proved themselves willing to ignore both of those taboos throughout their 300 year reign, from Aegon the Conqueror on down, and the Faith proved itself willing and able to do precisely jack about it. Even if Rhaegar cared what the Faith thought, there's always the chance that he and Lyanna got married in front of a weirwood tree in the sight of the Old Gods. They wouldn't need a septon for such a ceremony.

If R+L =J is true (and I strongly believe that it is), then it's highly likely that Jon is also legitimate and the heir to the Targaryen dynasty (give or take your feelings about Aegon and his possible status as a Blackfyre). I sincerely doubt that three of the most honorable and renowned knights of the Kingsguard, including Lord Commander Hightower, would have been willing to stand guard over the mistress and the unborn bastard son of their slain prince as the Targaryen dynasty crumbled into ruin, especially when a pair of unquestionably legitimate potential heirs - Viserys and Daenerys - were known to still be alive . No matter how much they loved Rhaegar, their oaths bound them to serve the King and the royal family, which would not include Jon - unless they believed that Jon was legitimate.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis and summary of this issue.

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Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were married of course ;)

I am so hoping for more info from Oberyn this season!!!! Anything he says about his past will be something in reference to R+L=J basically as he is there to avenge Elia. Thanks for posting on the thread :)

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The Faith of the Seven may technically prohibit polygamy, but it also technically prohibits incest. The Targaryens proved themselves willing to ignore both of those taboos throughout their 300 year reign, from Aegon the Conqueror on down, and the Faith proved itself willing and able to do precisely jack about it. Even if Rhaegar cared what the Faith thought, there's always the chance that he and Lyanna got married in front of a weirwood tree in the sight of the Old Gods. They wouldn't need a septon for such a ceremony.

The Blackfire rebelion come to my mind.

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Do you have a link?

The link is here: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

There's also this excerpt from Ned's fever dream about the Tower of Joy to consider.

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

That bolded passage is what really convinced me when I read the books looking for evidence of Jon's legitimate status. Either Hightower, Dayne, and Whent loved Rhaegar so much that they were willing to honor his last command at the expense of their oath - or they genuinely believed that they were protecting the heir to the Iron Throne.

To direct this conversation back to the TV show, however, I don't believe that the true nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship and Jon's status will be explicitly revealed for at least another season or two. At this point in the narrative, that information is extraneous, and not particularly relevant to the present conflicts in which the audience is currently invested. Benioff and Weiss likely want the reveal to have the maximum possible impact, and that won't be until the endgame of the series is within sight - late in Season 6 or early in Season 7, most likely.

When the time comes, the general consensus seems to be that the show will use Bran's abilities - specifically his visions of the past, to introduce the saga of Rhaegar and Lyanna (this will also have the benefit of fleshing out Bran's storyline, which is otherwise likely to be sparse). Howland Reed and/or Wylla could also be introduced as needed, but seeing as they haven't been seen in the books yet, it's hard to predict when or how they might appear.

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And they are also going to use Ashara Dayne it seems.

Because of the mention of Arthur? That could also just be laying the groundwork for explaining the ToJ stuff.

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I believe in RLJ, but I don't believe they married nor the guard thought baby J to be the next King, as many others. Can we not turn this into another "RLJ is true in the way I wanted to be true" because we still don't have more evidence on details, only the general aspect? At the end, we end up in circles. Married or not married, still Aegon was Rhaegar's older son and Aegon will show up to be alive.


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I believe in RLJ, but I don't believe they married nor the guard thought baby J to be the next King, as many others. Can we not turn this into another "RLJ is true in the way I wanted to be true" because we still don't have more evidence on details, only the general aspect? At the end, we end up in circles. Married or not married, still Aegon was Rhaegar's older son and Aegon will show up to be alive.

I agree with that sentiment. And if we're sticking to the show in this thread, I'm not sure Aegon I's bigomy (or any bigomy) has come up at all. I know that Arya and Tywin talk about it, Ayra doesn't mention who Rhaenys and Visenya were in relation to Aegon.

Tywin Lannister: Yes. Dragons happened. Harrenhal was built to withstand an attack from the land. A million men could've marched on these walls and a million men would've been repelled. But an attack from the air, with dragonfire... Harren and all his sons roasted alive within these walls. Aegon Targaryen changed the rules. That's why every child alive still knows his name, three hundred years after his death.

Arya Stark: Aegon and his sisters.

Tywin Lannister: Hm?

Arya Stark: It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragon. It was Rhaenys and Visenya, too.

Tywin Lannister: Correct. A student of history, eh?

Arya Stark: Rhaenys rode Meraxes. Visenya rode Vhaghar.

Tywin Lannister: I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy.

Arya Stark: Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called "Dark Sister."

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Because of the mention of Arthur? That could also just be laying the groundwork for explaining the ToJ stuff.

No

Because when D.B was asked about what characters from history does he find most intriguing and interesting he answered Lyanna Stark, Raeghar Targaryean and Ashara Dayne.

Two of them have been established, how long will it take to do the third?

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I believe in RLJ, but I don't believe they married nor the guard thought baby J to be the next King, as many others. Can we not turn this into another "RLJ is true in the way I wanted to be true" because we still don't have more evidence on details, only the general aspect? At the end, we end up in circles. Married or not married, still Aegon was Rhaegar's older son and Aegon will show up to be alive.

Fair point. I agree that this thread should largely be kept to discussion of the show and what's been revealed within that context. Which, at this point, is fairly little! The only certainty at this stage of the game is that we don't know anything for sure. We don't know if Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, still a bastard, or even if he's their son at all. We don't know if Aegon is truly who he says he is or if he's a pretender. We don't even know if Jon will survive his attempted assassination at the end of ADWD. The only people who know for sure are Martin, Benioff, Weiss, and probably Bryan Cogman. I for one, am just excited to get those answers at some point, either through the books or through the show - whichever comes first (it's going to be the show).

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