[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[Good Guy Garlan]

great list! also that jeyne may or may not be pregnant but this and any child she might have will not matter to the story.

Thanks! I knew I was forgetting something!

[Onna Lewyys]

Well there are many subtle hints, like in season 2, every shot of the IT there is a stained glass window directly behind it with a blue rose right in the middle.

I flipped out when I first saw someone mention this. I had never noticed it at all.

Source. That's why I never dismiss actors' interviews and their little slip-ups (like when Kit said "Jon doesn't who his parents are" and "there is a fiery side to him") ;)

Nice.

[Alia of the knife]

From Oberyn, some insight on Elias feelings.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Off the top of my head, I think the show has confirmed a few theories (or even some little things that, while obvious, were only implied in the text):

- Ramsey cut off Theon's dick

- Renly and Loras are gay

- Stannis banged Mel

- Mel used to be a slave

- Olenna poisoned Joffrey

- Varys really is a eunuch

- Margaery is not a virgin

Also, some possible ones:

- The High Priest of R'hllor wanted to bring the Lord of Light religion to Westeros (per Mel and Thoros convo in season 3)

- The Red Keep will be destroyed somehow in winter/a dragon will fly over King's Landing

- Arya and Mel will see each other again

Arr. I wonder about the whole Sandor/Gravedigger thing. I think that will likely end up being a thing too next season.

Also, Coldhands may not be someone super important after all if hes cut.

[Alia of the knife]

Arr. I wonder about the whole Sandor/Gravedigger thing. I think that will likely end up being a thing too next season.

Also, Coldhands may not be someone super important after all if hes cut.

I agree on Sandor, and I was kind of holding out against all hope that Coldhands wasn't Benjen, but I'm not getting too excited.

(Count down to "Viking" time). :D

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Off the top of my head, I think the show has confirmed a few theories (or even some little things that, while obvious, were only implied in the text):

- Ramsey cut off Theon's dick

- Renly and Loras are gay

- Stannis banged Mel

- Mel used to be a slave

- Olenna poisoned Joffrey

- Varys really is a eunuch

- Margaery is not a virgin

Also, some possible ones:

- The High Priest of R'hllor wanted to bring the Lord of Light religion to Westeros (per Mel and Thoros convo in season 3)

- The Red Keep will be destroyed somehow in winter/a dragon will fly over King's Landing

- Arya and Mel will see each other again

Could it also have confirmed Jeyne Westerling is in fact NOT preggers?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Arr. I wonder about the whole Sandor/Gravedigger thing. I think that will likely end up being a thing too next season.

Also, Coldhands may not be someone super important after all if hes cut.

Yeah, I wonder how they'll handle the Sandor thing, with him being like the ultimate fan favorite and all

About Coldhands, it's weird because this really was the time to introduce him. But ever since they brought the Reeds later I'm hesitant

Could it also have confirmed Jeyne Westerling is in fact NOT preggers?

Yep, I forgot that one

[Good Guy Garlan]

Oh, something else: in s3, Jojen tells Bran that he (Bran) is the 3-eyed raven (it's not a crow on the show, I guess).

[Chebyshov]

Off the top of my head, I think the show has confirmed a few theories (or even some little things that, while obvious, were only implied in the text):

- Ramsey cut off Theon's dick

- Renly and Loras are gay

- Stannis banged Mel

- Mel used to be a slave

- Olenna poisoned Joffrey

- Varys really is a eunuch

- Margaery is not a virgin

Also, some possible ones:

- The High Priest of R'hllor wanted to bring the Lord of Light religion to Westeros (per Mel and Thoros convo in season 3)

- The Red Keep will be destroyed somehow in winter/a dragon will fly over King's Landing

- Arya and Mel will see each other again

I'd argue Marg may have done the physical poisoning, but obviously Olenna was the mastermind (we might have to wait a few episodes for that though. Still definitely confirmed the strangler and the Tyrells' involvement.

[Onna Lewyys]

Oh, something else: in s3, Jojen tells Bran that he (Bran) is the 3-eyed raven (it's not a crow on the show, I guess).

That's not true, though.

[Rill Redthorn]

Exactly how many Targ Kings have been polygamous ? Aegon the Conqueror and who else ?

Maegor the Cruel was, but the Westerosi hated him so much for that, among other things, that the Targs seem to have voluntarily given up the practice. But it wasn't made illegal. Remember, when Dany is trying to figure out how there will be three Targaryens to ride her three dragons, she thinks to herself that she might have to marry two husbands to make that work since she's the last dragon.

After reviewing the Tower of the Hand essay on Jon's parentage, I realized that this proof of Jon's parentage and legitimacy is probably hiding in plain sight...in Lyanna's tomb at Winterfell buried with her bones. I'd bet a decent chunk of change there's documentation in there all nicely signed and sealed by witnesses.

ETA: Or geez, maybe the sword Blackfyre is in there! I've been expecting JonCon to produce it for Aegon but it hasn't shown up so maybe the Golden Company doesn't have it after all. Wouldn't that be something? I think it's much more likely to be the paperwork, but the idea of Jon getting Blackfyre from his mother's tomb and Blackfyre turning into Lightbringer is just very cool to me :drool: . (Yes, it's probably too cliche for GRRM. But if anyone could pull something like that off and make it work it would be him, eh?)

[Good Guy Garlan]

That's not true, though.

What, that Jojen said that or that what he said isn't true?

[Onna Lewyys]

What, that Jojen said that or that what he said isn't true?

What he said, that Bran is the Three-Eyed Raven. He's not; Bloodraven is. I suppose it could be fudged by saying that Bran is going to eventually be replacing Bloodraven as "the last greenseer" or whatever, but it's still not technically true.

[Le Cygne]

Some of the scenes...

Ned and Robert at the crypts (Ned looks away when he says she belonged with me):

Ned: She was my sister, this is where she belongs.

Robert: She belonged with me. In my dreams, I kill him every night.

Ned: It's done, your grace.

Ned and Jon, last time they talked:

Ned: The Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years. And you are a Stark. You might not have my name, but you have my blood.

Jon Snow: Is my mother alive? Does she know about me, where I am, where I'm going. Does she care?

Ned: The next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise.

Ned and Robert, talking about Dany:

Robert: What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister. The woman I loved. I'll kill every Targaryen I get my hands on.

Ned: You can't get your hands on this one, can you.

Bran in the crypts:

Bran: That's Lyanna, my father's sister. King Robert was supposed to marry her, but Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped her. Robert started a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar, but she died anyway.

Barriston Selmy, with Dany and Jorah:

Barriston Selmy: When your brother Rhaegar led his army into battle on the Trident, men died for him because they believed in him, because they loved him... I fought beside the last dragon on that day, your grace. I bled beside him.

Jorah: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died.

Dany: Did you know him well, Ser Barriston?

Selmy: I did, your grace. The finest man I ever met.

Oberyn:

Oberyn: The last time I was in the capital was many years ago. Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the last of the dragons. My sister loved him. She bore his children, swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn't let the wet nurse touch them. Then beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war, and the war ended right here, when your father's army took the city. They butchered those children, my nephew and niece, and wrapped them in Lannister cloaks. And my sister, you know what they did to her?... What I keep hearing is that Gregor Clegane, the Mountain, raped Elia, and split her in half with his great sword... But if the Mountain killed my sister, your father gave the order. Tell your father I'm here. Tell him the Lannisters aren't the only ones who pay their debts.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maegor the Cruel was, but the Westerosi hated him so much for that, among other things, that the Targs seem to have voluntarily given up the practice. But it wasn't made illegal. Remember, when Dany is trying to figure out how there will be three Targaryens to ride her three dragons, she thinks to herself that she might have to marry two husbands to make that work since she's the last dragon.

It's Jorah who suggested it to her.

[Annara Snow]

From Oberyn, some insight on Elias feelings.

About her feelings after she was just married to Rhaegar, probably. About her feelings years later and when Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna - not really, unless Oberyn went to King's Landing after the whole thing went down, talked to Elia and then came back.

ETA: Also, that doesn't confirm that book!Elia ever loved Rhaegar. It's not like the show is taking pains to be very faithful to the books when it comes to characters' feelings. Show!Cersei was in love with Robert when she married him, while book!Cersei never liked him - enough said. And one would think that Cersei's feelings and history would be more important than that of a minor dead character, but they still changed that.

[sertravisredbeard]

[Alia of the knife]

About her feelings after she was just married to Rhaegar, probably. About her feelings years later and when Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna - not really, unless Oberyn went to King's Landing after the whole thing went down, talked to Elia and then came back.

ETA: Also, that doesn't confirm that book!Elia ever loved Rhaegar. It's not like the show is taking pains to be very faithful to the books when it comes to characters' feelings. Show!Cersei was in love with Robert when she married him, while book!Cersei never liked him - enough said. And one would think that Cersei's feelings and history would be more important than that of a minor dead character, but they still changed that.

I hear this a lot, but isn't it as much an assumption that she didn't communicate with her family?

Was she not allowed? Arianne says that she once held Rhaenys but didn't remember it.

Where would that have taken place?

Oberyn didn't just stop with "she loved him" but kept going with pretty detailed information, and there were other Dornish at Court as well as witnesses.

The book also said that at Harrenhal, ALL smiles died. I assumed that meant Elias as well.

As for Cersei:

Ned: "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"

Cersei: "The first night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sisters name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."

So no, despite Jaimie and even Rhaegar, she did not appear to initially be indifferent to Robert, or else why care?

Even Cat expected that Ned would not be faithful, and Robert was fresh from grief over the woman he "loved and lost," so it wasn't personal but it killed any possibilities.

The show has changed some characters and made some shifts, but thus far, the outcome has been the same.

In the book, Elias feelings may be confirmed by Doran instead of TRV, but if we hear she was happy to be rid of Rhaegar, it really would make no sense because they could have just left it out, but I think his statement is meant to be taken as a whole, rather than focusing on the latter and references to "another woman."

[Suzanna Stormborn]

About her feelings after she was just married to Rhaegar, probably. About her feelings years later and when Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna - not really, unless Oberyn went to King's Landing after the whole thing went down, talked to Elia and then came back.

ETA: Also, that doesn't confirm that book!Elia ever loved Rhaegar. It's not like the show is taking pains to be very faithful to the books when it comes to characters' feelings. Show!Cersei was in love with Robert when she married him, while book!Cersei never liked him - enough said. And one would think that Cersei's feelings and history would be more important than that of a minor dead character, but they still changed that.

I dont remember Cersei 'loving' Robert on the show, seems like it was the same as the book, she was OK with him until their wedding night when he said Lyannas name. if that happened the first night they were together, it doesn't leave much time for her to love him.

[Nictarion]

The dusk rose that Daario gives Dany cures a fever...hmmm

We also need to look at Dany's HotU scenes a little more closely. Its there but hard to spot. The snow on the Iron Throne, her reaching for it but never touching it. The windows in the throne room being smashed, all but one. (which has a blue rose in the center) Dany exits the throne room and through the Wall. Thats a hint alright.

Yes, snow on the Iron Throne again. Now why would Bran be seeing the same thing Dany sees? ;) This has a double meaning. Just like Mel's vision in the books about her asking to see Azor Ahai but only seeing Snow. Winter is Coming. Shits gonna get real. But also snow claims the throne. I think this is one of the cooler little things that the show has slipped in. I have great optimism about the show's symbolism since the Regime Change Boar has not been lost on the show writers.

The HOTU scene is probably the biggest thing the show has foreshadowed/spoiled imo. It seems Dany will win the IT, but not have a chance to ever sit on it. We see her go north and be reunited with Drogo and Rhaego. I can't see any other way to interpret that besides Dany dies fighting the Others beyond the Wall.