[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[Mr Fixit]

the Wildlings didn't slaughter for fun

I'm not so sure about that. Wildlings have been raiding the Gift for centuries; it's one of the reasons it's depopulated. What do you think they do while raiding? I very much doubt there isn't at least some killing, raping, and maiming involved. They come and abduct women for crying out loud! Just go and ask the Umbers. :P

we haven't even seen any real cannibal wildlings

Maybe we haven't seen them, but in the books the ice-river clans are said to be cannibals. The precedent definitely exists in the source material.

their whole plan involved trying to take Castle Black from the south by surprise, so deliberately sending the kid to warn the Night's Watch made no sense.

It makes perfect sense. There's no surprise to be had anymore because Jon got away. He had previously fed misinformation to the Wildlings in Season 3, telling them there are 1,000 black brothers at Castle Black. The Wildlings are now trying to draw them out by attacking and raiding up and down the Gift so as to weaken the defenses at Castle Black. That's why Jon plans to eliminate the mutineers at Craster's: as soon as Mance finds out there are only 100 men at CB, he'll attack them head on.

All of these points are addressed in the show. I'm surprised by your inattentiveness. :fencing:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Can we brainstorm in here about the future episodes/seasons?

I don't know for sure if it's certain they're aiming for 7 seasons, could be an 8th, but if it's 7 then I guess we already know what the end of season 5 would bring? Jon face down in the snow?

There's still 2-3 books coming after that.

I think we've speculated before on Jon becoming LC before the Wildlings attack CB (ep 9), because it's so odd to see that one storyline being stretched out over 10 episodes, but I don't see it happening yet at this point, the new election?

So either that's wrong, or it will happen at the end of episode 10 (an election in one ep??), or it's season 5 material. But then he needs to go down quickly in a few episodes. Is that why the Wildlings are like this, now? Will they immediately declare nuts the person who'd let them into the 7K (though that was Stannis)? He definitely won't have much time to establish himself and come off as somewhat intelligent if he's going to go down in a few eps anyway.

[Rill Redthorn]

Can we brainstorm in here about the future episodes/seasons?

I don't know for sure if it's certain they're aiming for 7 seasons, could be an 8th, but if it's 7 then I guess we already know what the end of season 5 would bring? Jon face down in the snow?

There's still 2-3 books coming after that.

I think we've speculated before on Jon becoming LC before the Wildlings attack CB (ep 9), because it's so odd to see that one storyline being stretched out over 10 episodes, but I don't see it happening yet at this point, the new election?

So either that's wrong, or it will happen at the end of episode 10 (an election in one ep??), or it's season 5 material. But then he needs to go down quickly in a few episodes. Is that why the Wildlings are like this, now? Will they immediately declare nuts the person who'd let them into the 7K (though that was Stannis)? He definitely won't have much time to establish himself and come off as somewhat intelligent if he's going to go down in a few eps anyway.

I hope they don't try to cram the entire election with all its interesting shenanigans (and Sam's awesomeness) into episode 10. I'm thinking the season will end with the victory on the wall and maybe about a teaser for the election early in season 5, much the same as the way they put Joff's death early in this season. Jon really doesn't have too much to do after getting elected since he didn't appear in Feast at all -- mostly he gives Stannis advice on how to deal with the mountain clans, and then has to deal with the Alys Karstark situation and the Wildling integration, and then decides to go after Ramsay and gets whacked (temporarily we hope.) We don't know if Stannis will even visit the small clans of the North on the show, and I'd bet that Alys will be written out completely, leaving Jon with only the Wildlings to deal with in Season 5.

So if they start Season 5 with him getting elected and make his season 5 plotline about the struggle to get the Wildlings integrated and settled with as little bloodshed as possible, they can end Season 5 with Jon face down in the snow and drive everyone crazy with a cliffhanger like they've never seen. Or have him go face down in 5.09 and have him come back in 5.10 via whatever means that's going to happen so that people aren't too depressed to swear off the show between seasons 5 and 6 :)

Can you imagine the reaction of the Unsullied if a season ends with Jon presumed dead?

It won't be pretty. Not pretty at all. :crying:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Won't it be? I've no friends who watch the show, so I wouldn't know if he's somewhat liked or not.

It doesn't matter though if Jon was in AFfC, really, because the books are going to get mixed up for TV anyway, and there's nothing much in them (if it was once thought those books combined would be 2-3 seasons... Sorry, author. ) :whip:

[Rill Redthorn]

Won't it be? I've no friends who watch the show, so I wouldn't know if he's somewhat liked or not.

It doesn't matter though if Jon was in AFfC, really, because the books are going to get mixed up for TV anyway, and there's nothing much in them (if it was once thought those books combined would be 2-3 seasons... Sorry, author. ) :whip:

Jon's very popular with the Unsullied.

The reason it matters that Jon wasn't in Feast is that his available plot material after Swords is pretty thin, that's all. Sure, they can do the Dance stuff early, and I'm sure they will, but after that they'll be forging new territory. I'm not against that -- I'm just trying to anticipate what the plot beats will be for the end of this season and the season after it. My breakdown (based on the TV script work I've done) is that the election is likely to be shifted to early Season 5, and that if it isn't it will be drastically reduced, which I think will be a shame.

[Winterfell's Revenge]

Jon's very popular with the Unsullied.

I watch the show each week with a group of people who live tweet about it on Twitter and I was surprised by how popular he was among that group. When we were half way thru the show, I commented on how disappointed about the lack of Jon up until that point and so many people were in my timeline agreeing with me. They cheered when he finally showed up. lol I was really shocked.

As far as I can tell, most of that group really loves Jon, Dany and Tyrion, but I was shocked by how much they dislike Team Dragonstone. I don't agree.

[ThunderG]

Maybe Stannis simply makes Jon Snow Lord Commander after the battle?

The election would take too much screentime and if Jon becomes Lord Commander this way him be assassinated end of season 5 when Stannis is away is more plausible?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Stannis is kind of a big joke on the show, though. (Well, let's just say it always makes me laugh to see him in the show versus what the stans think he is... But I guess that goes for everyone.)

[Mr Fixit]

Stannis is kind of a big joke on the show, though. (Well, let's just say it always makes me laugh to see him in the show versus what the stans think he is... But I guess that goes for everyone.)

I think Dragonstone suffers the most from Book 3 being cut into two seasons. I'm not exactly surprised people find Stannis boring since he's had nothing/will have nothing to do from 3x01 to 4x08. This is one storyline I think would've benefited the most from made-up filler material to give the protagonists something to do besides brooding for almost two seasons.

[RedShirt47]

I think the show will cover R+L=J, such a big deal has been made of his parentage in the show (mostly in season 1).

As for other theories.

If they have Aegon on the show (probably will) I think he will just be the real Targ heir. They can't really go into Blackfyre history and make what is already a complicated story even more convoluted.

They seem no not being doing anything with Tywin being poisoned, at least there's no hints yet.

They are building up the encounter between the Mountain and Oberyn so I assume Ser Robert Strong will make an appearance.

The grave digging Hound could could be tricky as they won't have anything for the actor to do for a long time but hopefully they'll be able to do it. I guess they could recast as they've done with the Mountain.

What other theories will they ignore or cover?

[starki]

Even if he is, so what ? Last we saw him in the books he was busy getting stabbed repeatedly - I think Jon's role was to introduce us to the world of Night's Watch.

Daenerys, Stannis and the other Targaryen introduced in ADWD have a bigger claim than he does.

Azor Ahai and Prince that was promised will be two different people. I think Stannis will defeat the Others while Daenerys will unite the Kingdoms.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Even if he is, so what ? Last we saw him in the books he was busy getting stabbed repeatedly - I think Jon's role was to introduce us to the world of Night's Watch.

Daenerys, Stannis and the other Targaryen introduced in ADWD have a bigger claim than he does.

Azor Ahai and Prince that was promised will be two different people. I think Stannis will defeat the Others while Daenerys will unite the Kingdoms.

:eek: Just :eek: In almost 2 years in those forums I have never seen something like that before. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Alia of the knife]

I don't think Oberyn fares well either, (not that he was a great guy to begin with what with behaviors like slapping Barras mother), though he absolutely deserves his right to revenge.

Love the actor, but the book did a better job of portraying him as the "quintessential" dangerous man, with arcane knowledge of all things forbidden.

In the show, his first thing is to hit the "community center," (brothel), and apparently has been in bed ever since, with some snippets of information in between.

(Did he ever check into his room at KL)?

With the amount of character development and limited time, I'd like to hear more backstory.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Yeah, I found that silly too, Alia. Ep 1 has him in a brothel, and ep 3 does as well... He's just there to get the quota in.

[Darryk]

It's an effective and appropriate way to ensure the character makes an impression on the audience.

We're only 3 episodes in, plenty of time left for him to have non-brothel scenes.

[starki]

:eek: Just :eek: In almost 2 years in those forums I have never seen something like that before. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

First time for everything...plus, I think after ADWD GRRM is done introducing any more people with even a speck of Targaryen blood. It remains to be seen how he resolves Aegon with Daenerys.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Your interpretation of the GoT HOTU could very well be true, I just saw it a different way.

Also, in the HOTU in the books that vision she was most tempted with was the one of Ser Darry in the house with the red door when he was calling to her, but she was able to resist the temptation (I don't count the chamber room where the Undying were as she was not tempted but distracted when they started to grab at her).

Both the ASOIAF and GoT versions of HOTU tempt Dany with the memories of the two period in her life where she felt the happiest. Both times she walks away, I'm not sure what that might imply.

I think it shows that she is a ruler and can't have everything she wants. It's lonely at the top.

Watching the slaughter by the Wildlings right now.

Guess that's a definite R.I.P. Maegemund, I can only hope R.I.P. Alys/Sigorn, and I can't even with what this will mean for 'letting the Wildlings into the North' later on.

And R.I.P. TV!Jon/Tormund as well?

Wouldn't we need to have a little sympathy for these people left, especially Tormund? They didn't do much bad when Jon was with them, sure, but slaughtering and eating people?

Yeah the Thenns eating people is new, i guess it is just to show that some wildlings are terrible and some arent. My guess is that all the wildlings we see eating people will be killed by the nightswatch in the ice stair incident, and all the wildlings who are shown walking through the gate will be pathetic looking, so it seems like Jon is actually saving them.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also I hope Stannis does not stay at Dragonstone until episode 8 or 9. He is already not doing anything except brooding, he needs to go ahead and leave, have some boat/travel scenes.

Also what is the Cersei/Jaime change that is bothering everyone? Dont they do it in Joffrey's tomb room in the books as well? The show and the books are getting all mixed up in my head. I am going to have to do a quick re-read of Feast in the next few weeks.

[Onna Lewyys]

Also what is the Cersei/Jaime change that is bothering everyone? Dont they do it in Joffrey's tomb room in the books as well? The show and the books are getting all mixed up in my head. I am going to have to do a quick re-read of Feast in the next few weeks.

I feel like this thread is already getting very off-topic, but I'll answer that it's the fact that the scene in the show ends with Cersei still saying "stop, don't" while the scene in the book includes her saying "hurry, yes, do me now." As a book reader I have the privilege of regarding the show scene as just an unfortunate adaptation job, but critics and unsullied seem to be taking it as straight-up, unquestionable rape, which really hurts both Jaime's and Cersei's characters.

But, please, let's not get into it here, unless someone actually thinks it has to do with some theory for the future of the story.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, I found that silly too, Alia. Ep 1 has him in a brothel, and ep 3 does as well... He's just there to get the quota in.

Right. Characters like Stannis and Oberyn, COMPLETE opposites of one another are also full of contrasts, and the book allows for those nuances

It's an effective and appropriate way to ensure the character makes an impression on the audience.

We're only 3 episodes in, plenty of time left for him to have non-brothel scenes.

I don't know about effective, or appropriate, but it was certainly predictable.

And the next time we see Oberyn, its likely to be his scene with the Mountain since they have to work through the whole story line with Sansa and LF, and that will be his last. I can only hope we get Ellarias poingnant speech afterward.

Also I hope Stannis does not stay at Dragonstone until episode 8 or 9. He is already not doing anything except brooding, he needs to go ahead and leave, have some boat/travel scenes.

Also what is the Cersei/Jaime change that is bothering everyone? Dont they do it in Joffrey's tomb room in the books as well? The show and the books are getting all mixed up in my head. I am going to have to do a quick re-read of Feast in the next few weeks.

They do, but both are equally consenting. However, it really does a number on Jaimies redemption arc, which has to do not only with his mind now being turned towards his legacy, but also with his disengagement from Cersie which plays is a big part in his redemption.

He has another shot to get it right and his independence from her after having his eyes truly opened through his experience on the road with Brienne, is a big part of his evolution.

I suppose the series will explain his later defection as "a lover scorned."

Even "Time" magazine is wondering the same thing in "What is GOT doing with Jaime Lannister?"

http://time.com/70253/jaime-lannister-game-of-thrones-rape-scene/