World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[Veltigar]

Jaehaerys I banned the First Night as requested by Good Queen Alysanne. It happened some 200-250 years ago.

Exactly! In story it used to be a real thing.

[Ran]

It's a "real" thing in medieval Europe, too. It was just a real thing that was explained as a reason why you pay a certain fee or fine when marrying, acknowledged in the breach rather than the observance. Jörg Wettlaufer's article on the subject is illuminating.

[Catastrophe]

At any rate, I think the text makes it clear that Roose Bolton's actions were neither legal nor socially acceptable in Westeros at the time of the story. The fact that he felt the need to cover them up is proof enough of that.

[RumHam]

At any rate, I think the text makes it clear that Roose Bolton's actions were neither legal nor socially acceptable in Westeros at the time of the story. The fact that he felt the need to cover them up is proof enough of that.

I don't think anyone was arguing that it was legal or socially acceptable in modern day Westeros. Just that Bolton had done it and he claimed a few other northern houses still practiced it unofficially.

[Ran]

Very true.

[The Vulture King]

Ran- Can you tell us what percentage 300 dragons represented of the total Valyrian dragons?

[lojzelote]

So, the name of Ned's mother was finally uncovered. No great mystery here, she was a fellow Stark. I told you so long time ago. :P

I wonder though what the age gap between Lyarra and Rickard was. I take it that the children are not always noted in the order they were born? Because then she would a daughter of Beron's second child, while he would a grandson of the eight child... Anyway, I wonder how the match came to be. Either Rickard's and Lyarra's mother made some kind of a deal, or Rodrik's girls's claim was superior (in theory, anyway) and Lyarra was forcibly married to Rick by the usurping branch, or some combination thereof.

Hm, Rickard's brother Brandon (the one because of whom Old Nan had come to WF) is not there. Either maesters didn't pen him there because he died too young or ancient Nan misremembers and it had been Lorra's or Lyanne's boy.

I'd wager that Lonny Snow must have done something interesting because imho it's a tad curious that maesters would care enough to note a 'mere' bastard's pet name.

To nitpick, Westerosi parents seem to suffer from the godawful tendency let's-give-our-special-snowflake-a-name-which-is-different-but-not-too-different, which I so hate in RL (how many ways you can spell "Aidan", again? I've forgotten). Some readers have already trouble with distinguishing Rhaenys and Rhaella (not to mention Rhaella and Rhaelle), now they should keep track of Lyannes, Lyarras and Lynaras. Huh. Threads concerning the she-wolves of Winterfell will be likely confusing as hell, I can totally see people having in mind let's say Lynara, but using the name let's say Lyanna, and many misspellings thrown into the mix. Really, couldn't Lyarra be a Lyra, a name we're already familiar with? Or couldn't they all be simply Lyannas? If we can have twenty Brandons, why not three or four Lyannas? I don't understand. I know it's but a little thing, but bear with me; I kept my mouth shut with Loras/Lomas, Lyanna/Jyana/Tyanna, Daenera/Daenerys, but now I finally needed some venting. :dunno:

[Mithras]

Hm, Rickard's brother Brandon (the one because of whom Old Nan had come to WF) is not there. Either maesters didn't pen him there because he died too young or ancient Nan misremembers and it had been Lorra's or Lyanne's boy.

Rickard had no siblings. Brandon died at three of a summer chill. He cannot be excluded from the family tree. Old Nan claimed her Brandon was Rickard's brother (which is wrong) or Rickard's uncle. I think this is the case and her Brandon is Edwyle's half brother, son of William from a different mother.

[lojzelote]

Rickard had no siblings. Brandon died at three of a summer chill. He cannot be excluded from the family tree. Old Nan claimed her Brandon was Rickard's brother (which is wrong) or Rickard's uncle. I think this is the case and her Brandon is Edwyle's half brother, son of William from a different mother.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was excluded since he had died as a toddler. In RL history it happened all the time. Then again, maesters seem a bit more careful. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

[Mithras]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was excluded since he had died as a toddler. In RL history it happened all the time. Then again, maesters seem a bit more careful. Either way, it doesn't really matter.

In fact, it matters quite a lot :)

If the woman Dunk kissed is Old Nan during the She-Wolves of Winterfell, then Rickard's brother cannot be the reason of her employment. Not even Edwyle's half-brother is fit. Edwyle's uncle is old enough to be an infant around 213ish where Dunk was in Winterfell.

But I don't think Dunk kissed Old Nan. I think that woman was a she-wolf. IMO, Old Nan came after the Battle of Longlake and she was a wildling.

[Ghost's Shadow]

In that case, how many times do you think Dunk and Egg went to Winterfell? Old Nan had to get pregnant by Dunk to get to Hodor.

[Maia]

In that case, how many times do you think Dunk and Egg went to Winterfell? Old Nan had to get pregnant by Dunk to get to Hodor.

Or by a visiting Umber. IMHO, currently the latter is more likely. Though, no reason why Dunk couldn't have visited WF again in 220-ies.

[Mithras]

In that case, how many times do you think Dunk and Egg went to Winterfell? Old Nan had to get pregnant by Dunk to get to Hodor.

Dunk escorted Aemon, BR and his company upto Eastwatch at around 233. He may pay a visit to Winterfell on his way back. However, Dunk was a KG by that time and in Brandon's vision he didnot have a white cloak. Brienne is definitely a descendant of Dunk but I am not so sure about Hodor.

[Lord Varys]

Isn't Old Nan somewhat confused about the number of Brandons she met? I took that as a hint that Nan is in truth much older than people thing she is, and Bran/Robb and even Ned or Rickard may not really know how long she has lived at Winterfell and how old she is.

In that sense it's possible that Nan's grandsons died during Robert's Rebellion, and her great-grandsons died during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[Free Northman Reborn]

What is the basis for Hodor being a descendent of Dunk, rather than being 1/16th Umber or even 1/32nd giant or some such scenario?

Osha certainly believed he had giant blood in him.

[Ser Lepus]

Isn't Old Nan somewhat confused about the number of Brandons she met? I took that as a hint that Nan is in truth much older than people thing she is, and Bran/Robb and even Ned or Rickard may not really know how long she has lived at Winterfell and how old she is.

In that sense it's possible that Nan's grandsons died during Robert's Rebellion, and her great-grandsons died during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Old Nan is Tormund's grandmother, and Hodor is Tormund's half-giant son. :laugh:

[Alia of the knife]

There is more to old Nan than meets the eye. She was sent by the old gods, it is known. :cool4:.

In terms of who she is, think "Mordron,"(divine mother), a Welsh goddess, who sometimes appears as a washerwoman, and sometimes connected to Morrígan

[lojzelote]

She was described as a small lady at one point, no? Perhaps she's half a Child of Forest and lived at Winterfell for hundreds of years!

No, I'm not fully serious.

How sad her song will likely end at Dreadfort. :frown5:

[Ser Lepus]

She was described as a small lady at one point, no? Perhaps she's half a Child of Forest and lived at Winterfell for hundreds of years!

No, I'm not fully serious.

How sad her song will likely end at Dreadfort. :frown5:

Hey, she's so old that maybe she will just walk away and nobody will stop her, thinking that she can't go far. But she will appear at Last Hearth somehow, or maybe Karhold.

[Ser Lepus]

If people do not want spoilers, do not come on the board. I mean seriously, why must we all suffer for the stupidity of a few.

These threads are entirely made of spoilers. Everybody is speaking about the books, about the Tales of Dunk and Egg and every piece of information we have. There is a section for people who hasn't read the books: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/49-still-reading/ and http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/57-still-reading/