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Arataniello

World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

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That last bit is somewhat confusing, as I don't know what Garth Gardener would be doing fighting over in Essos. Nor do I understand what benefit Argilac saw in joining the fight against Volantis, unless it was with the long term plan in mind to become allies with Aegon.

I don't think Garth Garse was in Essos, they are listing his military accomplishments that happened over many years.

crossing the narrow sea to join the great alliance against the imperialist “tigers” of Volantis, and slaying Garse VII Gardener, King of the Reach, in the Battle of Summerfield twenty years later.

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I don't think Garth was in Essos, they are listing his military accomplishments that happened over many years.

Is there not a time discrepancy there, then?

My understanding is that Aegon Targaryen rode Balerion into War against Volantis to bring them down, in alliance with the Storm King, Argilac Durrandon and a few of the other Free Cities.

If that happened more than 20 years before the Conquest, that could not be possible, because Aegon was only 27 when the Conquest was completed.

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Is there not a time discrepancy there, then?

My understanding is that Aegon Targaryen rode Balerion into War against Volantis to bring them down, in alliance with the Storm King, Argilac Durrandon and a few of the other Free Cities.

If that happened more than 20 years before the Conquest, that could not be possible, because Aegon was only 27 when the Conquest was completed.

Timeline stuff is not my forte, but yeah I think you have a point there. One possibility (that I'm sure doesn't work out time-wise) is that it was the other Aegon? the one mentioned here:

Gaemon’s son Aegon and his daughter Elaena ruled together after his death.

Which would be The Aegon's great-great-grand-uncle or something? Then 20 years past, Argilac killed Garse and then had time to get old before the Conquest.

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The conflicts involving Volantis lasted decades. Argilac took part in them in his younger days, Aegon took part in them later.

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The conflicts involving Volantis lasted decades. Argilac took part in them in his younger days, Aegon took part in them later.

Ah. Thanks Ran.

The snippets we read until now appeared to suggest that it was some grand alliance that formed to defeat Volantis once and for all, and that this alliance included the Storm King and Aegon the Conqueror at the same time.

Clearly this is not the case, then.

I still wonder why Argilac would go and fight overseas against Volantis, when he was worried about the military security of his own dwindling kingdom, when he had already had to deal with a Dornish invasion in addition to the threats from the Gardeners and the Ironborn.

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Explained elsewhere in the World of Ice and Fire.

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Well, not much was learned, but there's some interesting new info. Also, that dragon is huge! :o Not mammoth- swallowing size, but still bloody big.

Ran, is this meant to be Balerion, or is it just random artwork (or both)?

And I don't know if it was confirmed before but AL=AC.

Not quite, AL=AC-2 :)

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By the by, yes, Durrandon is correct. I know Durrendon was previously used and stated as correct as well, but there was a change as we got nearer to wrapping everything.

Wiki editors, do your work on sorting that one out. Too bad there's no way to do a mass edit in Mediawiki... Or is there? Hrm.

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That picture is a beast!!!

GRRM wasn't kidding when he said the excerpt was accompanied by "kickass art." I am so looking forward to the artwork in this book, especially the picture of the IT that GRRM says comes the closest to the way he pictures the IT in both size and "sharpness."

Explained elsewhere in the World of Ice and Fire.

Devouring that book is going to make the wait for TWOW much, much easier. :)

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Well, I always suspected, but its good to hear confirmation that the black hair was a Durrandon trait.



It's also where Baratheon battle prowess seems to come from :P


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Targaryen Exodus - 114BC
Doom of Valyria - 102BC
Aegon's Landing - 2BC
Aegon's Crowning - 0AC

Awesome. Love the addition that Aegon & Visenya attended the Citadel for a spell.

Also, that Aenys and Maegor may have had conflicts with Dorne is interesting considering the Faith Militant. Maybe there was an alliance between the Faith and Dorne?

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So what's up with House Massey and House Bar Emmon? Were they Westerosi houses (ethnically a mix of First Men and Andals) who had been in Westeros for a long time prior to when the Valyrians occupied Dragonstone? Or were they Valyrians who had come across the Narrow Sea 200 years before the Targaryens, settled on the Hook, and become sworn to House Durrandon? The former seems more likely, since the cape was already known as Massey's Hook, but that would make Justin Massey's Valyrian features a bit of an aberration (although still possible, given enough intermarriage).


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It confirms that the Storm Kings are of House Durrandon, not the wiki's Durrendon, and that Argilac was the Storm King mentioned in ADWD to have fought Volantis.

I am confused about this - it only appeared once in the excerpt - maybe THIS was a typo, and it's actually spelled Durrendon as we've heard before? Ran will need to chime in on this to confirm.

By the by, yes, Durrandon is correct. I know Durrendon was previously used and stated as correct as well, but there was a change as we got nearer to wrapping everything.

Wiki editors, do your work on sorting that one out. Too bad there's no way to do a mass edit in Mediawiki... Or is there? Hrm.

EDIT: Okay so yes, Durrandon is official. Crud. Game of Thrones WIki was following AWOIAF! Now we have to update all of the names....

What was the thought process in editing? Clearly they're named after Durran. First you thought "maybe the spelling slurred over the centuries" but then you said "screw it, that's confusing, just call them Durrandon" -- *I* called them Durrandon for a long time and insisted Durrendon must be a typo, so I'm not complaining. "Durrandon" is less confusing.

Statues of the Seven in the sept of Dragonstone were made from the wood of the ships that brought the Targaryens from Valyria (per ACoK). I.e. They must have converted relatively soon after arriving and Aegon and his sisters were born into the Faith, though a somewhat modified local version that allowed incestual marriages, to be sure. In fact, The Fall of Valyria may have provided impetus for conversion and abolition of slavery in Targaryen holdings, as Valyrian gods and customs had just failed their people in most abject manner possible.

....many other sources state that Aegon converted to the Faith of the Seven as a matter of political expedience. I imagine that the Targaryen ship masts were kept around as heirlooms for 100 years, and THEN they were carved into images of the Seven.

Or that Martin will retcon that it was Aegon's forefather Aenar who converted as a matter of political expedience. Ran needs to chime in on this.

I find it interesting that Argilac was involved in wars in Essos, when at the same time he was concerned about the security of his own realm back in Westeros.

At the same time, reading between the lines of the extract, there seems to be a hint that Argilac's involvement in the war against Volantis in some way served to bolster his military position, and it would seem that it was in this war that he slew Garth Gardener.

That last bit is somewhat confusing, as I don't know what Garth Gardener would be doing fighting over in Essos. Nor do I understand what benefit Argilac saw in joining the fight against Volantis, unless it was with the long term plan in mind to become allies with Aegon.

Argilac probably didn't want a renewed "Volantene Freehold" on his eastern border, it would soon have started pushing him around -- keeping the Free Cities from getting united was in his favor.

***The King of the Reach he slew was not "Garth Gardener" -- his lived thousands of years ago. The excerpt says that he slew King Garse VII.

He slew him at the Battle of Summerfield.

The wording is a bit odd though: Aegon was born in 27 BC yet in his youth, participated in the alliance against Volantis (at 14 years old or so?) -- Argilac, meanwhile, turned back a Dornish invasion when only a boy, then ALSO participated in the war against Volantis, and then "twenty years later" slew Garse VII?

Unless Aegon fought Volantis when he was 7 years old or something, I think the order of the sentence may have been mixed up, because apparently the defeat of Volantis was only 10-15 years at most before the War of Conquest.

Should the sentence actually read "he turned back an invasion by the Dornish as a boy, then twenty years later fought Volantis, and then even slew Garse VII at the Battle of Summerfield"? -- again, need Ran to check.

The conflicts involving Volantis lasted decades. Argilac took part in them in his younger days, Aegon took part in them later.

Ah, that answers that question.

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Not quite, AL=AC-2 :)

Many assume, wrongly, that the reign of King Aegon I Targaryen began on the day he landed at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush, beneath the three hills where the city of King’s Landing eventually stood. Not so.

I understand this passage as they are using both forms for the same thing.

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As I explain at length: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#The_Targaryen_Conquest

The "AL" dating system was always a misnomer, given that he dated his rule from his coronation, but he "Landed" two years earlier - so he landed two years "Before Landing"?

So apparently the Maesters have updated the nomenclature. AL does indeed equal AC, it's just a more accurate name.

Consider how Jesus probably wasn't burn any later than the year 4 "Before Christ" due to dating errors which cropped up over time; so the name "Before the Common Era" is actually more accurate.

At any rate I think the excerpt worries too much: I consider the coronation the culmination of "The Conquest" so it's "After Conquest" -- though I understand the point that they continued to raid Dorne in force for years, so the fighting didn't simply end overnight. Still, if the continent's main religious leader coronating you isn't a sign of success, what is?

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So what's up with House Massey and House Bar Emmon? Were they Westerosi houses (ethnically a mix of First Men and Andals) who had been in Westeros for a long time prior to when the Valyrians occupied Dragonstone? Or were they Valyrians who had come across the Narrow Sea 200 years before the Targaryens, settled on the Hook, and become sworn to House Durrandon? The former seems more likely, since the cape was already known as Massey's Hook, but that would make Justin Massey's Valyrian features a bit of an aberration (although still possible, given enough intermarriage).

Actually I thought that was one of the main revelations from this excerpt, a question I have long had: the Velaryons and Celtigars were the only other Valyrian families who joined the Targaryens. The Bar Emmons and Masseys were Storm Lords from the neighboring coast, who over time developed stronger ties with the Targaryens, then outright sided with them.

As for concerns about the future Crownlands: given that a marriage alliance was never agreed upon, the Targaryens have no formal right to the Crownlands any more than the rest of the continent. Argilac never agreed to it.

Though of course, they weren't his to give, but Harren stole them anyway. It was a contested border zone: they had about as much right to them as the ironborn or Storm Kings ever did.

What's interesting is the new info that it was Harren's grandfather who conquered to the Trident/Gods Eye, but Harren's father who then expanded east to the future Crownlands, Duskendale and Rosby.

QUESTION FOR RAN: What of Stokeworth and Crackclaw Point? Was Crackclaw Point always fiercely independent, resisting both the ironborn AND the Storm Kings before them?

Interesting to find out that the southern Crownlands (south of the Blackwater) were part of the Stormlands at the time they were taken in the Conquest.

I know the Crownlands have the least developed "local character and history" compared to other regions (they're not exactly Dorne or the North, with deep local identity)....but as a Targaryen fan, and as the Targaryen "region", I try to pick up on every local characteristic that can be found.

What's weird is that there are usually about a dozen major vassal lords in each region (Umber, Manderly, Blackwood, Lefford, Tarly level families)....but we haven't really gotten a clear listing from the Crownlands (well we know many Houses but so many are of knightly rank). The major lordships in the mainland Crownlands appear to be Rosby, Duskendale, and Stokeworth......then the Cracklaw Point lords, then the coastal or island lords ruled from Dragonstone. Are there others or is this it?

And where is Lord Bronn's new castle? Is Stokeworth relatively close to Rosby?

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Okay this is a major question I've had about the World of Ice and Fire:

Will it ever give us an exact genealogy of all the Targaryen dragons?

In particular...given its narrative device as a book written by Maesters of the Citadel....who didn't know that dragons switch between male and female.....will it reflect the fact that the alleged "authors" didn't actually know who the parents of each dragon were?

I mean, how could they know "Balerion sired Quicksilver on Vhagar"? How would they even know Vhagar was a female, unless she laid eggs?

The running interpretation I've had since TPATQ is that they would start referring to a dragon as "she" if they observed it laying eggs (i.e. Syrax, Meleys, Tessarion).

For all they knew, however, *Balerion* might have laid eggs at some point, if they never observed it laying them.

Or what if the dragons mated in mid-air? Even if they later found Vhagar laying eggs, how would they know if Balerion or Meraxes was the sire?

So the questions are 1 - does the book contain dragon genealogies, 2 - does it *intentionally* make this vague, because it is at times impossible to know which dragon was the father? 3- does it at least mention who laid the eggs which each one hatched from?


Moving along: what were the names of the original four Valyrian dragons who died? How did they die?

Given that Aegon's grandfather Daemon (oh crud, it's spelled "Daemion" now, need to update that).....given that his grandfather Daemion was one of three brothers yet ruled Dragonstone after them, does this imply that they fought a "Dance of Dragons 0" which used up the other dragons?

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