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What if Renly had lived?


LdOfWfll

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Stannis had 5,000 men; 400 were sellswords. Renly had, IIRC, 80,000 men there, and the best chivalry of all Westeros.

Renly had ~20,000 with him. The rest of his host was at Bitterbridge. I think he brought his cavalry.

This scenario is an impossible one to answer. Because, the only reason Stan went down to SE was because Mel foresaw Renly's death. So, if Mel sees no such thing, Stannis doesn't leave DS. If thats the case, Renly marches up the Kingsroad, besieges King's Landing, and likely wins. However, the Lannister forces are still alive in the Riverlands, and Stannis is still at Dragonstone. So, while it seems like he's completely won, the war would be far from over.

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Renly was also an obvious usurper with no real claim to anything or reason to try to become king.

The Targaryens had no "real claim" to rule over Westeros but they took it anyways. Nobody cares about Renly's lack of a claim other than Stannis, the Tyrells don't care, the Storm lords don't care, Robb doesn't care. If everyone cared so much about claims Renly would of never been able to amass such a large army in the first place.

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The Targaryens had no "real claim" to rule over Westeros but they took it anyways. Nobody cares about Renly's lack of a claim other than Stannis, the Tyrells don't care, the Storm lords don't care, Robb doesn't care. If everyone cared so much about claims Renly would of never been able to amass such a large army in the first place.

Robb cared. When he is with his bannermen discussing if they should support Renly because he has the greatest strength, Robb cuts them off and says Stannis is the older brother.

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Robb cared. When he is with his bannermen discussing if they should support Renly because he has the greatest strength, Robb cuts them off and says Stannis is the older brother.

Robb cared before he was declared King in the North. Afterwards he has no reason to care which brother takes the throne, although if he knows anything about the two he has a lot more reasons to want Renly to take it, and then sends Cat to negotiate with Renly.

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I didn't say people weren't greedy and ignore laws.

I just said Renly's claim to the throne was illegal.

There is no such thing as legal claim. Renly was right about that - what matters is who's the strongest. The Targrayens had no legal claim over Westeros by the time Aegon began the Conquest, but they took it anyway. Robert and his line have no legal claim over the Iron Throne either according to Viserys and Dany. It's all a matter of perspective, but in the end all that matters is who won, not who had the best legal claim.

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Robb cared before he was declared King in the North. Afterwards he has no reason to care which brother takes the throne, although if he knows anything about the two he has a lot more reasons to want Renly to take it, and then sends Cat to negotiate with Renly.

The problem is, 1 generation passes and everyone wants to be independent again. Which defeats the purpose of the IT in the first place. Old Renly would basically rule relatively small regions. The Lannisters, the North, Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale would not side with him or remain loyal.

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The problem is, 1 generation passes and everyone wants to be independent again. Which defeats the purpose of the IT in the first place. Old Renly would basically rule relatively small regions. The Lannisters, the North, Dorne, the Riverlands and the Vale would not side with him or remain loyal.

Every king has that problem. Certain regions won't follow certain people, the Tyrells doesn't care for Stannis, the North and Riverlands don't care for the Lannisters, the Vale doesn't seem to care for any of the kings, etc. Renly had the must support of any of the claimants, but of course he couldn't have all of the support, no one can.

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He would have crushed Stannis and after that, he would have killed him. Then he would have gone to King's Landing and the city would have fallen. The Lannisters would have been destroyed, and then, after all...he would have fought against Robb.

I agree, unless robb gave up both his claim to bring King of the North and of the Riverlands they would have hade to thought.

Robb would likely give up the Riverlands because it would be impossible to protect them against the South. He would fall back to the neck and hold the North.

Resulting in a long draw out conflict which would leave the realm weak for Danys eventual attack.

This of course wouldn't make as good a book though.

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Every king has that problem. Certain regions won't follow certain people, the Tyrells doesn't care for Stannis, the North and Riverlands don't care for the Lannisters, the Vale doesn't seem to care for any of the kings, etc. Renly had the must support of any of the claimants, but of course he couldn't have all of the support, no one can.

All Renly knew was that he had the support of the Stormlands and Reach and he was about to take the Crownlands. He was willing to secede the North and Riverlands and knew the Vale had an Tully ruler at the moment. He didn't even know about Balon yet. The only ones he would get on his side would be Dorne but they hate the Reach.

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Oh Renly was doomed.

Boy howdy.

There's the whole knights of summer thing that Cat goes into. But my doubts about Renly stem from the fact that he's a courtier playing at being a warrior. In the lead-up to the battle that never happened between Renly and Stannis, Renly makes 2 breathtaking blunders. First he out marches his supply lines. He's assuming that Stannis will be a minor speed bump, but war is a dangerous field in which to make assumptions. Then he decides it's no big deal if his army marches into the rising sun as they engage.

Sure, Renly still would have won, but with unnecessarily high casualties, and not for the last time. He would emerge from the battle for Storm's End more confident than ever that he's a mighty warrior king and his word must be obeyed. Even when it's dumb.

After he looses too many men while taking King's Landing he can pick his poison. He can chase guerillas around the Red Mountains. He can crash his host against the Bloody Gate in hopes of besieging the Eyrie. Or he can match wits with Robb.He can do these things in any order he wants, assuming his enemies never form alliances. But every campaign costs blood and treasure.

Renly thinks he has a big enough army to subjugate Westeros. But he doesn't.

Renly had the greatest commanders , calvary and soldiers in Westeros, do you see Stannis cutting down a lot of his men?

As to Kl, His has a fleet of 2000 strong and can easily do what Stannis almost did with 20,000 with. Stannis did not even loose that many men to Tyrion.

Why would he need to do that? Petyr would back him, Renly was his ideal king.

As to Robb, he is good at guerilla warfare, but was a virgin to open battle.

Yes he does.

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The Rainbow Keep! And everything would be almost as it was before Robert died, empty coffers and all.





Renly was also an obvious usurper with no real claim to anything or reason to try to become king.




The same could be said of Stannis, since Joffrey was the lawful King. Stannis was a usurper's dog, too.


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The same could be said of Stannis, since Joffrey was the lawful King. Stannis was a usurper's dog, too.

Although he knew about the incest and he was the elder brother.

Renly was thinking he was bypassing his two nephews, his niece and his older brother. And didn't care.

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Although he knew about the incest and he was the elder brother.

Renly was thinking he was bypassing his two nephews, his niece and his older brother. And didn't care.

And Robert knew he was bypassing Aegon and Rhaenys. He didn't care.

It's not the same situation, I'll admit, but there is precedent for "might makes right" in Westeros and it didn't start in Highgarden.

All Renly knew was that he had the support of the Stormlands and Reach and he was about to take the Crownlands. He was willing to secede the North and Riverlands and knew the Vale had an Tully ruler at the moment. He didn't even know about Balon yet. The only ones he would get on his side would be Dorne but they hate the Reach.

Renly was no more willing to cede the North and the Riverlands than Stannis was. All he said was that Robb could call himself "King in the North" as long as he remits his taxes -- essentially, he was willing for the North to become like Dorne.

Renly had to die for the story to continue. While Renly obviously could not solve all of the problems that Westeros was facing, he would have had more than enough strength to put down the Lannisters and if he had then the story would be completely different. Either Renly or Stannis could have hammered out a peace with the North and the Riverlands -- both men would be eager to exterminate the Brave Companions and Gregor Clegane and make recompense to the North for the death of Ned Stark. The northmen hated the Lannisters but they were indifferent to the Baratheons -- Robb had wiggle room (honor-wise) to negotiate with them in a way that he didn't really have with the Lannisters.

Even Cersei admits it, noting that she was very fortunate that the Stranger had carried off Renly and left Stannis. For some bizarre reason most people in the story seem to assume that Renly was some kind of joke, the facts of the matter are that he had the biggest army with the most money and many seasoned commanders. We as readers know that Stannis has an edge that would render all of those attributes useless, but I don't understand why so many of the characters in the story seemed to assume that Renly couldn't possibly hurt them. I think a lot of people buy into the surface image of Renly, the foppish naif, and forget that if someone is plunging a knife into your heart it really doesn't matter if they act a little dandyish beforehand -- it'll kill you just the same.

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And Robert knew he was bypassing Aegon and Rhaenys. He didn't care.

It's not the same situation, I'll admit, but there is precedent for "might makes right" in Westeros and it didn't start in Highgarden.

Robert didn't intend to become King though he also fought a lot in other places and didn't march right on King's Landing.

I often defend Renly that he did it because of self preservation and that he didn't know what Stannis was doing, but that's about it.

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Robert didn't intend to become King though he also fought a lot in other places and didn't march right on King's Landing.

I often defend Renly that he did it because of self preservation and that he didn't know what Stannis was doing, but that's about it.

He crowned himself while Viserys was still in Westeros and the Targ forces were already defeated, he did intend to crown himself over innocent people that had a stronger claim than his.

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