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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion


Ran
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In the Tyrion whitewashing department...

Maaaaaan, it's going to be one hell of a turn for the character when he murders Tywin and Shae. Yikes. The viewers will all have whiplash.

I totally read that in Aidan Gillen's weird Littlefinger voice. :D

I would not be surprised if TVTyrion! doesn't kill Shae, out of TV character.

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The idea that Tywin just made up a king on the spot in service of his point is awesome. I love it.

I guess the problem is that Book Tyrion never even turns his mind to these things, if only to dismiss them. It never occurs to him to think of Pod...just as Brienne later realizes that Tyrion neglected Pod's training.

All will be forgiven if Tyrion eventually starts cursing Sansa for abandoning him later on or starts thinking she's too dumb to pull off something like that. But D and D would never allow their Saint Tyrion to even consider that.

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This episode is all about reminding everyone how everyone in Westeros is an asshole again, just as people were feeling giddy about Joffrey's death. Starting to like Jaime a bit? Well how do you like him now? Starting to like the Hound a bit? Well he's a douchebag too. Think Dontos was legitimately wanting to help Sansa. He's just doing it for the money, and LF didn't even pay him.



Westeros sucks even with Joffrey gone, and don't you forget it!


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Things have to be trimmed, they haven't got 50 pages to flesh it out here.

Maybe if they didn't devote half of each episode to sex and nudity they could have...

Sounds like D&D are too focused on villainising Stannis and somehow making Cersei out to be the victim and forgetting that characters like Tyrion aren't angels

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All this talk about how Tyrion has been white washed made me think: I guess I always thought he was a good guy. As far as Pod goes he didn't have the opportunity in the book to tell Pod to run for his life. They weren't threatening/questioning Bronn so there wasn't any reason for Tyrion to make the parallel to Pod. They never asked Pod to testify & if I remember correctly when Tyrion asks Pod if he thinks he did it Pod indicates that he does or at the very least doesn't answer. What did he do in the books that was so bad? I love Tyrion btw so maybe I'm blind to his evilness? He is a shit sometimes but I felt like he was a pretty decent guy in the books...

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It's the "Follow me if you want to live" line... that does the trick.

Since Sansa has nothing to do with death of the King, how could she know her life is in danger? Following a strange to someplace Gods know where would be much more dangerous.

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Were you listening?



What I liked



The Counsel We Keep: The episode’s overarching theme seemed to be, “Just Who Do We Listen To” and it has ever-lasting consequences. Its true if you are the new ruler of Westeroes; its true of you are Craster’s Wife and need to go away; its true if you are the Mother of Dragons and its true if you are Pod. Who do we listen to?



Tywin Lannister, once again, without question, owned. We know that; we knew it before, it is known. It’s not just that Tywin was giving sage counsel to a worthy vessel. Its that not only did Tywin get Tommen to move TOWARDS Tywin, but that it was who Tywin got Tommen to AWAY from.



In other words, Cersei is not going to ruin two kings.




And nobody is going to rape Gilly.



And when your mother says “run” YOU RUN!



And a fool and his silver are soon parted.



And Stannis is about to get some money.



And when you see a bunch of broken shackles getting thrown over the wall… whoa re YOU going to listen to?



That’s the thing about wise counsel- it comes in all forms. It’s who we chose to listen to that matters most. This was even clear in the scene with Thorn and John Snow- wisdom is wisdom, even when it sucks and you have to turn your backs (in this case literally) on people who are helpless. (And I loved Pyp- I don't think I could kill 100 wildlings either).



The Deals We Make: Sansa and Peytre was very well laid out; we know why that deal is happening. Sansa wanted out and Petyr wants in (and yes- that’s a double entendre right there). And obviously, Tywin and Obyrn Martell is about two men getting what they want, and that sometimes you are a powerful man and a pawn all at the same time. But sometimes- you just can’t say ‘no.” And sometimes, we just need to talk to our brother. Tyrion reaching out to Jaime is going to be great.



The One True Hand: Tywin is the King in everything but name. So, therefore, I think the best Hand in the show is Davos, and its incredible how he speaks to his King and how that is a worthy and deserved dialog. I hope hope HOPE that viewers appreciate that Stannis is actually the wisest ruler of them all BECAUSE he listens to wise counsel. That’s why he is still out there and Robb, Renly, Balon and Joff are worm food.



And listening to Davis bitch about Stannis to his daughter was gold.



Not So Sure:



It Should Have Been Selmy: Look, it was a fine scene, but …. At some point I kinda want to see what makes him a great swordsman other than lip-service. We already saw Daario fight and we have seen Mormont kill like 20 guys; it would be nice to see Selmy do SOMETHING other than look tired. I thought that was a perfect opportunity. NO biggie but ….



The Hound and The Actor We Now Know People Want To Watch In a Meaningless Scene: I didn’t dislike the Hound and Arya’s scene and I thought it had a great message at the end, but there is a part of me that wonders if we could have gotten more accomplished in those 8 minutes. I think the scene told us a bunch of stuff we already knew- that the Hound is an asshole (I’m cool with that) and that he is a difficult and angry man who will do what it takes to survive. The scene we saw- while funny and fun and interesting was also …. Something we already sort of knew. I didn’ need to see it again. I don’t MIND seeing it but … We could have NOT had that scene and been just as well off. I think the show knows what the viewers like and “Arya”: trends well on Twitter. So…. Yeah… Don’t mind but I think its pandering.



What I didn't Like:



Nothing specifically.



I felt this was a slow episode that did a lot of things very well. Certainly, it slowed the pace considering 2 of the last 4 episodes has had a major, story-altering death. This episode slowed things up, reminded the viewers where we all were and toned down the pacing. I thought it was a third-best episode of the season, and that’s actually a good thing.


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Since Sansa has nothing to do with death of the King, how could she know her life is in danger? Following a strange to someplace Gods know where would be much more dangerous.

Because she knows that KL is the worst place for her to live? Besides, Dontos says it clear: if she doesn't follow him, she might die. Maybe Sansa thought she might have died for real if staying, like they were meant to be all murdered, like the Red Wedding.

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Having said that, I do have to agree that the Jaime/Cersei sept scene was just cringe-inducing (probably the sole negative aspect of the episode for me), made even worse by the fact that Cogman confirmed that it was intended to look 100% consensual.

If that is what the showrunners believe is consensual sex, I think they have a very warped perspective on sex.

About Tommen's age and his marriage to Margaery...

Did anyone notice that as Tywin and Tommen were walking away, Tywin was telling Tommen about the need to marry and continue the family line?

The rest of the conversation went like this:

Tywin: To continue the family line. Do you know how that happens?

Tommen: Yes.

Tywin: Has anyone explained the details to you?

Tommen: I don't think so.

Tywin: It's all relatively straightforward...

Hmmm. Sansa and Tyrion never wound up consummating their marriage, either, but Tywin giving Tommen the talk? I wonder.

TV Tommen is...interesting. Despite being older, he still seems easily manipulated by Tywin...although, to be fair, Tywin was not wrong in anything that he said.

The moment they aged up Tommen, I started to wonder if he would consummate the marriage to Marg. This convo supported that idea...

Well, I don't know why everybody is so upseted about Jaimie/Cersei sex scene. It was not rape! In the book, he finds her alone with Joff's body and takes her right there, while she says "stop, Jaimie, please, not here, not now".

What's the difference?

If that was rape, so it was in the books. The problem, I see, is that book Cersei doesn't care about it, she just accept the rape thing so she can control others (just like happens with one of the Kettleblacks).

In the book, she says no kind of feebly but then gives in to their passions. Here, she was saying no the whole time.

Okay, clearly like most people, I was disturbed by the Jaime/Cersei sept scene, which I confess I liked in the books. It did feel rapey and the only reasons for it that I can think are 1) to make Jaime less sympathetic because he had become so in Season 3 and 2) to push off Jaime/Brienne shippers, because there is no way Brienne can end up with a man who raped his sister. He has paid the price for Bran with his hand, but this was nuts.

I also think they felt that they made the Hound too funny and nice, so they had him steal the silver to keep him grey.

Love the new Tommen. Unlike Joff, he actually looks like he could be Jaime's son. I liked the convo with Tywin, but I thought it strange that Tywin would be so insensitive to Cersei. This is the man who didn't want her to know that that Tyrells had rejected the marriage between her and WIllas. It looks like they are setting up for a break between Tywin and Cersei...

I liked new Daario (especially his naked woman hilted dagger -- which I thought was a nice detail from the books) and I thought this was a reasonable way to continue the Dany/Daario relationship. I thought they could have drawn out his fight a little more. Random thought-- during the pissing match, the thought popped into my head "I wonder if the actors were told to come to the set with their bladders full?"

I thought Sansa's escape was fine, but yeah, how did it suddenly become dark?

When LF told her to call him Petyr, I was immediately grossed out. Also, I get that she's a tall actress, but somehow he's less scary when he's so much shorter than her. Can they not put some lifts in his shoes?

Wildling attack was great and well done. Loved that Ygritte shot the first arrow. ANOTHER example of them greying a character that had become too sympathetic. Same with Jon suggesting that going after the mutineers was more important that protecting the smallfolk who were being attacked. Starting to see signs of the Lord Commander who forced Gilly to leave her child.

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All will be forgiven if Tyrion eventually starts cursing Sansa for abandoning him later on or starts thinking she's too dumb to pull off something like that.

Yes. It seems like TV Tyrion thinks Sansa's too nice to poison Joffrey, not that she's too stupid to pull it off by herself. That could change, of course. It's a bit early to pass judgment on that bit. Tyrion and Pod, on the other hand...

Book Tyrion: Doesn't give a fuck about Pod's safety, tells him "You've been a good squire to me. Better than I deserved."

TV Tyrion: Tearfully sends Pod away from KL for his own protection, tells him "There has never lived a more loyal squire."

...You see where I'm going with this?

"Elyo Grivas"?!

Ran, are your ears burning? :D

The moment they aged up Tommen, I started to wonder if he would consummate the marriage to Marg. This convo supported that idea...

Well, the notion of Sansa/Tyrion sex was bandied about in a few non-book conversations in the show, and that marriage wasn't consummated either, so I don't know that the conversation Means Something in terms of a deviation from the books, but yeah, I wonder.

Edited by Newstar
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All this talk about how Tyrion has been white washed made me think: I guess I always thought he was a good guy. As far as Pod goes he didn't have the opportunity in the book to tell Pod to run for his life. They weren't threatening/questioning Bronn so there wasn't any reason for Tyrion to make the parallel to Pod. They never asked Pod to testify & if I remember correctly when Tyrion asks Pod if he thinks he did it Pod indicates that he does or at the very least doesn't answer. What did he do in the books that was so bad? I love Tyrion btw so maybe I'm blind to his evilness? He is a shit sometimes but I felt like he was a pretty decent guy in the books...

Tyrion is a pretty good guy given his upbringing and the society he lives in, but he's also the guy who, among other things, had a guy who tried to extort him murdered and then disposed of the body in a public food source (YUCK!). That's not really a "decent guy" sort of thing to do in my book.

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Because she knows that KL is the worst place for her to live? Besides, Dontos says it clear: if she doesn't follow him, she might die. Maybe Sansa thought she might have died for real if staying, like they were meant to be all murdered, like the Red Wedding.

Exactly, it would click with her when he said that that she'll be a suspect.

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