[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

[NightStark]

I don't know who played Osha's twin in Mole's town but I kept looking for Rickon ;). IMDB says there was a Thenn warg - wth?

Guy with the owl from ep.1

[jarl the climber]

Yeah, I was a little confused about all the outrage around here over that scene.

It's been a while since I read the book, but I don't remember Cersei welcoming Jaime with legs spread wide...

Maybe its me being influenced by the books, I guess I have to rewatch the scene to be sure, but I thought Cerseis protests were faux.

[Greywolf2375]

Finally got to see the whole episode:

Sansa's escape: Wow - the drunk can really row for a long time. Got to think that LF's voice change each season is to...maybe...show how he can change at a whim.

Marg/QoT - Her speeches are over the top, but she delivers them so well...love the QoT.

Sept - Wow, Tywin almost seems like a grandfather here. Some of the best delivery...new Tommen so far looks like he will do well. I do like how Tywin lets Tommen work his way through to get to wisdom. And a nice old "eff you" to Joffrey.

Jaime/Cersei - in the books it was forceful, but consensual. This...this wasn't. I know it's been commented on before, but just wondering why they would change the relationship like that. him repeating "I don't care" just reinforces it At least they skipped over the moonsblood....

Hound/Arya - they do have great interplay, and while I am glad they brought back the fact that this isn't Riggs & Murtaugh with the Hound being an ass, I don't like that they just had him go back on his "a man has to have a code" from just a little bit before. I think it probably shocked a lot of people to see that this isn't the Hound Redemption Roadshow but that he is still out for himself.

Wall - Gilly & Sam are great together, still wish they did have someone see that Sam did kill the WW.

Davos/Stannis - their interplay is great, but Shireen and Davos are right behind Hound/Arya. "Your father lacks an appreciation of the finer points of bad behavior".

[~DarkHorse~]

You left out the section where she says 'No, not here'

True but she clearly got into it which the shows fails to show.

That scenes was so disturbing because Cersei was carried away moaning while fucking her brother in front of their sons corps. There was literally no shame.

In the show Cersei is clearly the overpowered one and Jaime the manipulative/controlling one. Yes, he initiated the sex but she was digging it after awhile and egging him on. However, she keeps her 'mother with halo' act for the show while Jaime is dirtied up and proven hypocritical towards one of his redeeming actions- saving Brienne from being raped.

My main problem is the lack of making Cersei look bad, just Jaime- killed his cousin but Joffrey had Roberts bastards killed, not Cersei. And now this.

Edited April 21, 2014 by ~DarkHorse~

[NightStark]

True but she clearly got into it which the shows fails to show.

That scenes was so disturbing because Cersei was carried away moaning while fucking her brother in front of their sons corps. There was literally no shame.

In the show Cersei is clearly the overpowered one and Jaime the manipulative/controlling one. Yes, he initiated the sex but she was digging it after awhile and egging him on. However, she keeps her 'mother with halo' act for the show while Jaime is dirtied up and proven hypocritical towards one of his redeeming actions- saving Brienne from being raped.

My main problem is the lack of making Cersei look bad, just Jaime- killed his cousin but Joffrey had Roberts bastards killed, not Cersei. And now this.

Yeah I see what you're saying.

[The Lady Leela]

The kid who got his father and mother killed during the Wildling raid and escaped to Castle Black is the one who's gonna snipe Ygritte with a bow or a crossbow. The way they show him looking at her while he's under the cart was way too ominous. It also would make sense the Night's Watch would arm him if he can hold a weapon.

That's the impression I got, as well. Plus, that kid was a REALLY good actor. You don't waste good child actors like that. He's gonna get his revenge and kill Ygritte.

Mixed feelings about this episode. It tipped the scales to good, but it wasn't great. What can I say about that Jaime scene that hasn't been said already? I mean, sigh. What did it accomplish? What was the point of it? The violence against women is getting pretty ridiculous on the show. Knowing what's coming up for Sansa and Shae isn't helping. Goddammit, what was dumb. DUMB.

I kinda teared up when Tyrion said goodbye to Pod, even though Tyrion is becoming worse than Daryl Dixon when it comes to being overbearingly canonized. Pod is one of the best things the show has ever done, hands down.

Even though I like the Hound and Arya, that scene where they just tear into the stew was a huge turn off for me. I know it was played for laughs, but I have a huge bad table manners phobia :drunk: .

Littlefinger's acting is just cringeworthy. Oh, God, he's even worse than I remember. Varys is a good example of an actor who can play mysterious and creepy without sounding like someone who is trying to audition for a bad Batman parody. However, Sophie Turner is doing a great job with the material. She's really grown as an actress these past few years. I'm really looking forward to her storyline.

Without Mance Ryder's baby, I really don't care at all about Gilly's. I don't get the point of taking her to Mole's Town. Like, at all. Sucks, cause I love Hannah Murray. Also, Sam should be losing weight by now, no? Somehow he seems bigger to me. I do hope, however, that Gilly somehow reminds the audience that Wildlings aren't evil people. Without Osha around, I fear the Unsullied might miss that point, seeing as the show is doing naught to drive it home.

I continue to be impressed with Kit Harrington's acting this season. I've gone from being indifferent/irritated with Jon, to quickly adding him to my list of favorite characters. I know it's gonna get better, and I can't wait! THIS is a Jon Snow I can get behind. He's getting pretty badass.

From Olenna and Margaery's scene, I got the sense that Margaery wasn't a part of the murder. Olenna is sitting there all, "wink, wink. wink wink. WINK WINK!" and Margaery didn't seem to get it at all. I'm okay with that, to be honest. Margaery has a lot to learn, still. I agree with whoever said that she came off very young in that scene. You could see it in Olenna's smile, that she loves her granddaughter but still has a lot to teach her. Great acting by Dianna Riggs, as usual. Don't know how this changes Margaery's storyline in the books, though I suppose it doesn't matter much now whether she was in on the murder or not.

I kinda rolled my eyes at Dany throwing that slavers' chains over the walls of Mereen. However, Emily Clarke seemed to imply in an interview that Dany's glory will turn to shit, so I'm still reserving judgement. Huge foreshadow there with her telling Jorah that he's her best adviser and friend. Also, whoever said Emilia is at her best when shouting in other languages is totally right. She was really great during that speech scene, even her mannerisms were pretty nice.

Whatever, Daario.

Where were the dragons?

Charles Dance continues to be an inspiration to all and he should end up on the Iron Throne. Not Tywin. Just Charles Dance.

Stannis: I will not become a page in someone else's history book.

Me: HE SAID IT! HE SAID IT!

[Obebb]

I don't think Oberyn is "ruined" but HBO is, like always, exploiting a single aspect of his life when he definitely has more that is way more interesting.

He's the Viper for Doran's grass. They haven't even explained WHY is he called like this, except that it's mentioned about poisons.

He loves Elaria and Elaria is not some fun girl he's sexing with.

They have four children, and he's a great parent to his daughters.

Of course, HBO want to overuse the fact that he is supposed to be bisexual, only based on rumours and sayings about him, probably the noble man people speak rumours the most. Because Oberyn's bisexuality is more like only chatter to put him in a bad light.

And of course, Pedro Pascal is great, like Dillane and many others actors in the show, it's not his fault.

I agree with this very much. I still love Oberyn in the show so far, but in a way I feel some sort of embarrassment because I told my unsullied family that Oberyn and house Martell are like my favourites before the season started. Little did I know the Dornish would seem like nothing more than sex-crazed freaks on the show (at least so far). To my unsullied family I can only say "Nooo, there is more to him than this :blushing: " to defend myself :lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My main problem is the lack of making Cersei look bad, just Jaime- killed his cousin but Joffrey had Roberts bastards killed, not Cersei. And now this.

My problem with this is that they're turning Cersei into a victim. Poor mother who lost her poor boy and was raped by evil brother. In books, many people look to the other side when Cersei's crimes are discussed because "she's a victim of society, she was raped by Robert". Now, it's the same. I personally don't see Jaime being as "holly" and redeemed yet, as people want him to see, even after Brienne he fucked his sister inside a Sept, so, he's still broken and careless. It's after he sends Brienne that he really started to change for good and Cersei, for bad. And now, everything bad Cersei does will be tried to excuse with "well, she's right about mistreating Jaime because HE RAPED HER".

[Greywolf2375]

Granted, we can't get the details from the inner thoughts as we do in the books, but it would be much nicer to get shown the different possibilities of who could be guilty rather than told. The Tywin thought process Tyrion has just seems hamhanded in delivery.

Course, it is made up for completely with his interaction with Pod. great scenes there.

Wildlings - it's fine they have the Thenns as cannibals, but again it seems over the top in the dialogue with the little kid.

Wall - loved seeing Slynt not have the vaguest clue as to how to react to the chest thumping. Building a nice set up for Stannis & Harrington's delivery is much better. How did Grenn get away? can't hear any description of how they escaped

Dany - miss Belwas, but that was handled as well as can be. I think the actor playing Daario is doing well, but he just doesn't come across to me as Daario. the manacles across the walls are a nice touch.

[Arataniello]

Course, it is made up for completely with his interaction with Pod. great scenes there.

I have just seen that the actor playing Pod is the son of the actor who played Rodrick Cassel.

[~DarkHorse~]

I agree with this very much. I still love Oberyn in the show so far, but in a way I feel some sort of embarrassment because I told my unsullied family that Oberyn and house Martell are like my favourites before the season started. Little did I know the Dornish would seem like nothing more than sex-crazed freaks on the show (at least so far). To my unsullied family I can only say "Nooo, there is more to him than this :blushing: " to defend myself :lol:

Me too! :lmao:

[boojam]

The Iron Bank of Braavos.

It's there across 5 novels, but even Dragons it aint that big a plot point.

In the show it keeps popping up all the time.

Is this a foreshadowing? That GRRM, Dave, Dan and Bryan know of something even bigger for the IB.

Have always wondered why the IB does not worry about The Others?

I mean you don't want one of best customer bases wiped out!

[Natalie Underfoot]

Loves, hates and thoughts:

Love:

Anything with Tywin, Lena's acting while he was berating Joff and slowly taking Tommen away.

Arya and the Hound of course, including the way they were eating the stew

Shireen

Daario and the nice recap of how Danys feels about her different companions. Plus the Valyrian

Jon Snow and all the posturing at the Night's Watch. If we're going to have Thorne there we still need to establish snow's leadership somehow.

Tyrion and Pod

Dislikes:

The Jamie-Cersei scene. It was supposed to one of grief and desperation after both of their worlds have been ripped apart. It was gross and horrible and painful and sad. This felt weird to me especially since we had the scenes earlier where it was very clear she had been rebuffing him. I believe the writers when they say they didn't think it was rape but still it seemed a weird way to present it. I viewed it as Jamie trying to comfort Cersei in an albeit inappropriate way, and her resisting mildly before consenting. I just don't think it was well shot at the very least.

Littlefinger: he's always been a slimy character but the way he's acting now is just over the top. So either this is his natural behavior which I really don't want to see. My original hypothesis was that he was struggling to keep his accent under control while whispering but that seems much more fanwanky than true. Again, the dynamic between little finger and Sansa has been protector/mentor, not creepy uncle squirreling you away in the night. He is teaching her about navigating the realm when you are not strong or brave. That's the lesson of killing Dontos. It just felt weird, but again, I blame it on weird choices of both actor and director.

Thoughts:

Still like this Daario way better than old Daario and stand by my projected character merge

The Hound breaking his "code" don't think he did. He didn't steal from the brotherhood because they weren't "dead men". like he viewed this man and his daughter. Also, I feel like it's a reminder, as someone said earlier, the world is hard even without Joffrey and just cause he's dead doesn't mean people are better.

[boojam]

I don't know who played Osha's twin in Mole's town but I kept looking for Rickon ;). IMDB says there was a Thenn warg - wth?

At first glance I thought "How did Natalia Tena get here?!"

But I think the Mole's Town Madam is Lu Corfield with make up that made her look like Osha.

[The Lady Leela]

Dany - miss Belwas, but that was handled as well as can be. I think the actor playing Daario is doing well, but he just doesn't come across to me as Daario.

Yup. This is a completely different Daario to me. Different from the books and from last season's Daario. They should've just created a new character.

But as you pointed out and I forgot to add, Mereen was gorgeous! Stunning visuals. Plus, the people looked healthy and happy. Now here comes Dany to fuck it all up.

[Stannis I]

Although Oberyn is pictured as just a dangerous sex machine i think he will be fine after a couple of episodes, unlike Stannis (god). But the Magnars...cannibalism... that is pretty messed up.

Not quite. If I'm not mistaken, in ADWD Ser Davos is going to 'a place where they eat men's flesh' so he can find Rickon Stark and bring him back to Wyman Manderly. That place, I think, is Skagos.

See that part on the wiki: "Descendents of the First Men, Skagosi are savage, little more than tribes of raiders who are thought to be cannibals"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skagos

[Obebb]

Not quite. If I'm not mistaken, in ADWD Ser Davos is going to 'a place where they eat men's flesh' so he can find Rickon Stark and bring him back to Wyman Manderly. That place, I think, is Skagos.

See that part on the wiki: "Descendents of the First Men, Skagosi are savage, little more than tribes of raiders who are thought to be cannibals"

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skagos

But the Thenn's aren't cannibals, and that basically throws the Alys plot out the window. Unless they continue with it anyways, which I hope to dear god for Alys's sake that they don't :uhoh:

[The Lady Leela]

I'm starting to think we're not gonna see Alys. I'll be surprised if we see Val.

[Stannis I]

But the Thenn's aren't cannibals, and that basically throws the Alys plot out the window. Unless they continue with it anyways, which I hope to dear god for Alys's sake that they don't :uhoh:

I think Alys' plot is over and even the Thenns aren't gonna be around next season. They're not essential.

Even Ser Kevan is being neglected so far. I think he'll show up only in season 5 or maybe 6.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Stannis I

[Rippounet]

The Iron Bank of Braavos.

It's there across 5 novels, but even Dragons it aint that big a plot point.

In the show it keeps popping up all the time.

Is this a foreshadowing? That GRRM, Dave, Dan and Bryan know of something even bigger for the IB.

I'm fairly certain there is a strong link between the IB and the FM. At the very least, the IB is a "regular customer" of the FM. At the most, both are actually one big Bravosi organisation with a hidden agenda for Westerosi politics.