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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion


Ran
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He probably regards the show versions of his characters as completely distinct from the book versions. I will be interested to see, when WoW is released, if I can detect any signs of shifting in his characters based on show interpretations he might actually like -- as in, will he deliberately or inadvertently start modeling Tyrion more like Peter Dinklage, with Dinklage's mannerisms? Will Sansa seem more like Sophie Turner? How about Brienne and her actress?

I know JK Rowling had this happen with her characters during the Harry Potter series. The films were actually affecting how she saw the characters. Snape became more and more Alan Rickman and less Slimy Asshole Teacher. He was full blown Alan Rickman in the sixth and seventh book. I think with GRRM, he might start Dinklaging Tyrion a little and Arya might be a little bit more Maisie, but i doubt it will be like "oh i like that so im going to deliberately do it." I think he'll just begin doing it subconsciously. I dont think the descriptions of the characters will change though.

About That One Scene, im a little sad about it cuz Jaime in the show and Jaime in the books seemed to be pretty much the same guy. While i dont think Show Jaime is RUINED FOREVER, he isnt quite the same guy anymore and thats disappointing.

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If any of you've seen the promo for Oathkeeper, he has at least four scenes in the episode. Anyone who's been turned against him will likely be won back once the episode air. He does a helluva lot of sympathetic stuff next week. Also he has a scene with Cersei where perhaps they'll clarify what went down.



Also:



MODS. APPROVE OF OATHKEEPER THREADS! OTHERWISE THERE'LL BE A BIT MORE OF THIS STAGNATION!


Edited by Konradsmith
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Well, I don't know why they'd delay like that but if I have to wade through anymore damned complaining when I've got thoughts on that promo, you know constructive speculation (one of the things that AFOIAF excels at when its at its best)...Why I oughta!


Edited by Konradsmith
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In that promo, depending on how the Cersei scene where she tells Jaime to go hunt for Sansa is handled he might even lose more fans. The Bronn training session will probably just fly over their heads, i mean itll just be him being a noob... i forgot the rest... gotta go watch again



Anyways, I think, but im not sure, that Brienne is a very loved character by the unsullied and when Jaime gives her Oathkeeper and that new armor they will forget all about what happened a couple days ago(maybe)


If anything they might just think hes a cool piece of shit

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Personally, I love those. Jaime's relationship with Tyrion was his first redeemable quality that we knew of. There wasnt enough of them in the books, though the upcoming ones will probably be book canon too. But those might go down the drain also when that "Tysha confession" comes along...



...if it comes along.


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Personally, I love those. Jaime's relationship with Tyrion was his first redeemable quality that we knew of. There wasnt enough of them in the books, though the upcoming ones will probably be book canon too. But those might go down the drain also when that "Tysha confession" comes along...

...if it comes along.

If Tyrion doesn't get to knock Jaime on his butt, while, I ,... < shakes fist>

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I think this was the DARKEST episode in Game of Thrones so far. There might have been sadder episodes, or more tragic episodes, or even episodes more emotionally traumatizing. Yet, nearly every scene in this episode was showing a world of cruelty, poverty, and abuse of the weak.



  • Sansa escapes the frying pan of King's Landing and falls into the fire. Littlefinger's evil would make Tywin want to have a bath. And he now has Sansa. The poor girl can't have anything nice, not even for an episode.
  • Sam takes Gilly to live and work (on her feet) in a whore house. I question the wisdom of this move, but watching her care for her son on the dirt floor with rags is a sad image on its own. Is this what he "saved" her for?
  • Tyrion sits in jail with his last friend in the world smuggling him food. The scene ends with Tyrion ordering Podrick to flee King's Landing, and he is now a man alone in the world. His family is moving to convict him. His wife is fled. He sent his lover away and she probably hates him now.
  • The Hound finds a godly man who gives him food and shelter for a night. The man offers the Hound fair wages for fair work, in other words an opportunity to help rebuild the world he helped destroy as a Lannister lackey. The Hound repays the kindness by robbing the man of his silver and claims they'll be dead by winter. He then throws the deaths of Eddard, Robb, and perhaps Rickard as well into her face as evidence that his way is the right way.
  • Cersei, convinced Tyrion is responsible for Joffrey's death, asks Jaime to murder their brother before a trial. That is pretty grim. Jaime's response is to rape Cersei... in Baelor's sept... next to the Joffrey's corpse. The fact that this isn't the most disturbing scene of the episode (though perhaps it is the most shocking considering how out of character it is for Jaime) is testement to either Martin's or somebody at HBO's need for a Valium prescription.
  • And then we have the wildlings attack a peaceful village and massacre its inhabitants. Because death isn't dark enough, Styr holds a blade to a child's throat, informs the boy that he has just killed his parents and will proceed to eat them. It is a tactic to lure the Night's Watch out of Castle Black, but was still disturbing to watch.

The episode ends on what I think was suppose to be a hopeful and uplifting moment, but frankly its the third time we've seen Danaerys playing savior, the first being Aastapor and the second being the season three finale. It is getting old and doesn't change anything. Essos remains a world away from Westeros, and the problems with Westeros have nothing to do with slavery. It has to do with how war breaks down the cultural and social forces that keep people safe and prosperous. And should she ever invade Westeros, it would be as another conqueror destabilizing whatever peace Tywin Lannister can salvage.


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I think this was the DARKEST episode in Game of Thrones so far. There might have been sadder episodes, or more tragic episodes, or even episodes more emotionally traumatizing. Yet, nearly every scene in this episode was showing a world of cruelty, poverty, and abuse of the weak.

  • Sansa escapes the frying pan of King's Landing and falls into the fire. Littlefinger's evil would make Tywin want to have a bath. And he now has Sansa. The poor girl can't have anything nice, not even for an episode.

Sam takes Gilly to live and work (on her feet) in a whore house. I question the wisdom of this move, but watching her care for her son on the dirt floor with rags is a sad image on its own. Is this what he "saved" her for?

Tyrion sits in jail with his last friend in the world smuggling him food. The scene ends with Tyrion ordering Podrick to flee King's Landing, and he is now a man alone in the world. His family is moving to convict him. His wife is fled. He sent his lover away and she probably hates him now.

The Hound finds a godly man who gives him food and shelter for a night. The man offers the Hound fair wages for fair work, in other words an opportunity to help rebuild the world he helped destroy as a Lannister lackey. The Hound repays the kindness by robbing the man of his silver and claims they'll be dead by winter. He then throws the deaths of Eddard, Robb, and perhaps Rickard as well into her face as evidence that his way is the right way.

Cersei, convinced Tyrion is responsible for Joffrey's death, asks Jaime to murder their brother before a trial. That is pretty grim. Jaime's response is to rape Cersei... in Baelor's sept... next to the Joffrey's corpse. The fact that this isn't the most disturbing scene of the episode (though perhaps it is the most shocking considering how out of character it is for Jaime) is testement to either Martin's or somebody at HBO's need for a Valium prescription.

And then we have the wildlings attack a peaceful village and massacre its inhabitants. Because death isn't dark enough, Styr holds a blade to a child's throat, informs the boy that he has just killed his parents and will proceed to eat them. It is a tactic to lure the Night's Watch out of Castle Black, but was still disturbing to watch.

The episode ends on what I think was suppose to be a hopeful and uplifting moment, but frankly its the third time we've seen Danaerys playing savior, the first being Aastapor and the second being the season three finale. It is getting old and doesn't change anything. Essos remains a world away from Westeros, and the problems with Westeros have nothing to do with slavery. It has to do with how war breaks down the cultural and social forces that keep people safe and prosperous. And should she ever invade Westeros, it would be as another conqueror destabilizing whatever peace Tywin Lannister can salvage.

Ooooh i like this post.

As for the Dany part, its still pretty fucking grim, yeah. Cuz the slave picks up the collar and you just know hes eyeballing his master and totally going to shank his ass. You seem more bored with Dany's moment, and i hear ya, but its going to escalate and we finally get to see whats going to happen cuz she isnt just going to move on after that. Slaves murdering their masters in the streets and shit. But yeah, its "HEY WE KNOW JOFFERS IS DEAD, BUT GUESS WHAT! THE WORLD STILL SUCKS AND YOU GOTTA DEAL WITH IT!" The Episode.

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I think this was the DARKEST episode in Game of Thrones so far. There might have been sadder episodes, or more tragic episodes, or even episodes more emotionally traumatizing. Yet, nearly every scene in this episode was showing a world of cruelty, poverty, and abuse of the weak.

  • Sansa escapes the frying pan of King's Landing and falls into the fire. Littlefinger's evil would make Tywin want to have a bath. And he now has Sansa. The poor girl can't have anything nice, not even for an episode.

Sam takes Gilly to live and work (on her feet) in a whore house. I question the wisdom of this move, but watching her care for her son on the dirt floor with rags is a sad image on its own. Is this what he "saved" her for?

Tyrion sits in jail with his last friend in the world smuggling him food. The scene ends with Tyrion ordering Podrick to flee King's Landing, and he is now a man alone in the world. His family is moving to convict him. His wife is fled. He sent his lover away and she probably hates him now.

The Hound finds a godly man who gives him food and shelter for a night. The man offers the Hound fair wages for fair work, in other words an opportunity to help rebuild the world he helped destroy as a Lannister lackey. The Hound repays the kindness by robbing the man of his silver and claims they'll be dead by winter. He then throws the deaths of Eddard, Robb, and perhaps Rickard as well into her face as evidence that his way is the right way.

Cersei, convinced Tyrion is responsible for Joffrey's death, asks Jaime to murder their brother before a trial. That is pretty grim. Jaime's response is to rape Cersei... in Baelor's sept... next to the Joffrey's corpse. The fact that this isn't the most disturbing scene of the episode (though perhaps it is the most shocking considering how out of character it is for Jaime) is testement to either Martin's or somebody at HBO's need for a Valium prescription.

And then we have the wildlings attack a peaceful village and massacre its inhabitants. Because death isn't dark enough, Styr holds a blade to a child's throat, informs the boy that he has just killed his parents and will proceed to eat them. It is a tactic to lure the Night's Watch out of Castle Black, but was still disturbing to watch.

The episode ends on what I think was suppose to be a hopeful and uplifting moment, but frankly its the third time we've seen Danaerys playing savior, the first being Aastapor and the second being the season three finale. It is getting old and doesn't change anything. Essos remains a world away from Westeros, and the problems with Westeros have nothing to do with slavery. It has to do with how war breaks down the cultural and social forces that keep people safe and prosperous. And should she ever invade Westeros, it would be as another conqueror destabilizing whatever peace Tywin Lannister can salvage.

I just wanted to say that this is beautifully written, and sums up my feelings exactly for this episode! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I used to be on this forum, but took a long sojourn, so I'm returning...it's good to be back :)

Edited by brave danny flint
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After a long, hard look at this episode (I've watched it four times) I've come to the conclusion that the sexual violence portrayed in that scene was just as terrible as some of the other violence in that episode -- for instance, the despicable filth the Thenn told that poor little boy. Also disturbing was seeing Ygritte slaughter men, women and children. And of course, it was heartbreaking to see that beautiful little girl make rabbit stew for Arya and the Hound, with a kind, pious, but admittedly someone not as robust as the Hound, praying for the gods' blessing.



The gods don't give a fuck. At least the gods of the Seven, it seems to me.



My opinion of Show!Jaime might be beyond repair. It is just so completely out of character for him that it twists the viewer's perception of him irreparably. Before, he was on a path of redemption -- with this act of sexual violence, he has sullied his new chance to be good and honorable. Sure, the timing also made this act a possibility -- she had just asked him to kill Tyrion, whom he loves, and she was definitely giving him "yes/no" responses -- but it served no good purpose in the end, I promise everyone that. Benioff&Weiss will take a LOT of flak for this, esp from feminist groups.



George himself is unhappy about it, although he phrased his response delicately.



I am not sure how much of this stuff has been covered, but I'm sorry, I couldn't read 36 pages.



Random:



-- I liked how Ser Dontos told Sansa "you're stronger than you know" -- it was a nice echo to Jojen Reed telling Summer/Bran in COK that the grey wolf "is stronger than he knows".



-- How creepy was it when Littlefinger's arms descended from the top of the ship, without being able to see the head from Sansa's angle, and she was suddenly lifted up and over into his arms? I thought that was a delightfully visually symbolic shot, rich in meaning.



-- I actually thought the arrival at Meereen was REALLY cool, in no small part due to Ramin Djawadi's BRILLIANT song composition. This is a new theme - we'll probably be hearing it a lot throughout the next couple of seasons. Meereen itself looks really beautiful, actually. It looks like a city Daenerys Targaryen would rule over, from a high pyramid. What does everyone else think?



-- The fight between Daario and Pahl was pretty good - since I'm not a fan of violence, I like how it was sort of quick and short, but really clever too. His wink at her was charming, too. Let's hope he gets sexier as the season goes along. But then I'm sure Emilia coupling with any man makes it high-octane sexy.



-- The scene with Tywin educating Tommen was actually really thrilling to me for some reason. I have no idea why, but I really liked it. When Tommen finally got that wisdom was a king's most important quality, the way Charles Dance said "YES!" just made me squee a little :dunno: Their acting is just so great.



-- I have come to love Lena Headey's acting with all my heart. She IS Cersei, now.

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You know what just occurred to me? Wouldn't it be awesome if the gentle, pious man, whom Sandor is POSITIVE will be "Dead come winter", ends up as the head septon on the Quiet Isle? It's in the Riverlands, but I have to see how close it is to Fairmarket. That would be such irony. I could imagine him coming in wounded, and someone feeding him rabbit stew, he recognizes it, sees the girl/man, and starts crying like a BABE :-D


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I know JK Rowling had this happen with her characters during the Harry Potter series. The films were actually affecting how she saw the characters. Snape became more and more Alan Rickman and less Slimy Asshole Teacher. He was full blown Alan Rickman in the sixth and seventh book.

Hmmmm,really??? Where did you get that?? Any examples?

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If any of you've seen the promo for Oathkeeper, he has at least four scenes in the episode. Anyone who's been turned against him will likely be won back once the episode air. He does a helluva lot of sympathetic stuff next week. Also he has a scene with Cersei where perhaps they'll clarify what went down.

Also:

MODS. APPROVE OF OATHKEEPER THREADS! OTHERWISE THERE'LL BE A BIT MORE OF THIS STAGNATION!

I think it will take a LOT for him to do to redeem the rape scene.

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I

  • Sansa escapes the frying pan of King's Landing and falls into the fire. Littlefinger's evil would make Tywin want to have a bath. And he now has Sansa. The poor girl can't have anything nice, not even for an episode

The episode ends on what I think was suppose to be a hopeful and uplifting moment, but frankly its the third time we've seen Danaerys playing savior, the first being Aastapor and the second being the season three finale. It is getting old and doesn't change anything. Essos remains a world away from Westeros, and the problems with Westeros have nothing to do with slavery. It has to do with how war breaks down the cultural and social forces that keep people safe and prosperous. And should she ever invade Westeros, it would be as another conqueror destabilizing whatever peace Tywin Lannister can salvage.

I agree it was very dark, but I'd say pretty much everyone would treat Sansa better than Lannisters. All the abuse from Joffrey, and if she got caught in KL she'd get trialed and executed. For now, Littlefinger is the only way out.

I liked the ending. Unlike other royal candidates who huff and puff "because it's my right to rule I will be king PERIOD", Daenerys is the one going through the learning process of how to rule and more importantly, care about the people.

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Does anyone know what Tywin said to Oberyn when O asked him to confirm he had nothin to do with the death of his sister and niece an nephew.

It sounded like a non-English (common tongue) word possibly a dornish word that would've meant more to Oberyn than saying "I wasn't involved" as soon as it was said, Oberyny seemed much less tense.

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