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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion


Ran
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Does anyone know what Tywin said to Oberyn when O asked him to confirm he had nothin to do with the death of his sister and niece an nephew.

It sounded like a non-English (common tongue) word possibly a dornish word that would've meant more to Oberyn than saying "I wasn't involved" as soon as it was said, Oberyny seemed much less tense.

Do you mean "categorically"? If I remember correctly, he says something like he denies it categorically - i.e. absolutely, unambiguously.

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The Titan had his head chopped off by Daario in the show, so Barristan would have to save her from someone else -- presumably one of the first signs of the existence of the Sons of the Harpy or something.

I surely would like them to give Barristan something to do.

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I surely would like them to give Barristan something to do.

Yeah I know, but what have Iain Glen and Ian McElhinney really had to do but act as sounding boards for Dany?

Barristan Selmy kills a manticore is S3E1.

Jorah Mormont does a little sword fighting in S3E9.

In the books Selmy does another Dany save , never know on the show they do move or re-frame things from the books.

(Arya's kill at Harrenhal is moved to a Frey soldier kill after the RW.)

That's about it until a certain Selmy sequence in Dragons.

Still having them around as good, even in the books who the heck does she have to talk too?

Well Daario does get into the act, but I wonder how the heck that will play out on the show?

(All her Dothraki Blood Riders are non speaking WAY in the background, and the Dothraki hand medians are all gone. She interacts with Missandei on the show, I guess that will go on?)

Edited by boojam
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While the Sept scene was a little more harsh than in the books due to Cersei never really giving in fully, I don't really get why most people say it's straight up rape. You can clearly see her kissing him back and groping at him and even though she's saying "it's not right" at the end, it's not like she's really fighting him. And Jaime saying "I don't care" is clearly in response to her saying "it's not right".



Honestly, it looked more like a scene were she wants him too, but not there beside her dead son. The people claiming that this scene makes Jaime a rapist need to rewatch it.


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People have mentioned Selmy getting some fighting.

In the book, doesnt he save Dany from the Titan of Braavos before revealing himself as Barristan?

Anyone think they might have added this scene into an upcoming episode?

Barristan saves her from the warlock when he introduces himself in the city she takes the Unsullied

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While the Sept scene was a little more harsh than in the books due to Cersei never really giving in fully, I don't really get why most people say it's straight up rape. You can clearly see her kissing him back and groping at him and even though she's saying "it's not right" at the end, it's not like she's really fighting him. And Jaime saying "I don't care" is clearly in response to her saying "it's not right".

Honestly, it looked more like a scene were she wants him too, but not there beside her dead son. The people claiming that this scene makes Jaime a rapist need to rewatch it.

Because she didn't want to, at all. That's what makes it rape.

Unlike the book where it becomes consensual.

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Ooooh i like this post.

As for the Dany part, its still pretty fucking grim, yeah. Cuz the slave picks up the collar and you just know hes eyeballing his master and totally going to shank his ass. You seem more bored with Dany's moment, and i hear ya, but its going to escalate and we finally get to see whats going to happen cuz she isnt just going to move on after that. Slaves murdering their masters in the streets and shit. But yeah, its "HEY WE KNOW JOFFERS IS DEAD, BUT GUESS WHAT! THE WORLD STILL SUCKS AND YOU GOTTA DEAL WITH IT!" The Episode.

Thing is, though, we have been conditioned to see the Slave Masters as irredeemably evil. Like orcs or Nazis or reavers. You can never feel bad about killing them. The show has skipped over any sort of ambiguity, though this is at least sourced in the books where she doesn't have to actually deal with the fallout of her actions until Meereen.

I just wanted to say that this is beautifully written, and sums up my feelings exactly for this episode! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I used to be on this forum, but took a long sojourn, so I'm returning...it's good to be back :)

Thank you. I'm sure you'll figure out the new quote function soon enough. :)

I agree it was very dark, but I'd say pretty much everyone would treat Sansa better than Lannisters. All the abuse from Joffrey, and if she got caught in KL she'd get trialed and executed. For now, Littlefinger is the only way out.

I liked the ending. Unlike other royal candidates who huff and puff "because it's my right to rule I will be king PERIOD", Daenerys is the one going through the learning process of how to rule and more importantly, care about the people.

I agree that "pretty much everyone" would treat Sansa better. However, "pretty much" leaves room for a few rare specimens. Obviously the Mountain would rape, beat, and eventually kill her. The same might be said of Joffrey, but he was kept in check by Tywin and Tyrion. Littlefinger is also one of the people who Sansa is in worse hands with. Remember, this is the guy who told Ros to stop crying after seeing a baby murdered in the brothel by threatening to kill her as a "bad investment." He might be subtler and smiles, but he will take what he wants from Sansa, and there is no one to stop him.

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For me, the most disturing was the reaction of the public to the Jamie/Cercei scene, because I thought it was clearly rape. And I found it very odd that people didn't considerer it that way.



More, Jamie just proved once more that he's worse than Cercei, but I guess the public apologize him because he's a man, and I noticed that pattern in other series, like Mad Men and Breaking Bad. It's sad, really...



And I'm talking just about the tv series, as I havent read the books.




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The Titan had his head chopped off by Daario in the show, so Barristan would have to save her from someone else -- presumably one of the first signs of the existence of the Sons of the Harpy or something.

I surely would like them to give Barristan something to do.

I seem to recall reading once that the actor playing Barristan isn't in good enough shape (or possibly it's a matter of a previous injury/surgery, and not lack of fitness) to do a believable fight scene, which is why he never does anything physically challenging on the show. Do you know anything about that?

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I really hated the scene where Dany explains to the audience how much she cares about Jorah more than anyone else .



Firstly, its 100% inconsistent with the changes they made in season 3. Jorah did not lead the Battle of Yunkai as he does in the books. He has not once led the army or even been implied that he was the general. Daario is the military leader who planned and executed the conquest of Yunkai. Also, she was a total bitch to Jorah last season. Being snappish with him, dismissing his advice, not taking him into her trust, showing 0 preference or interest in this characters well being and when she burns the people at Astapor even refusing to acknowledge him as if shes insulted by his presence. One of the first lines in season 3 is Dany telling him "its too nice a day to argue". There was nothing last season to suggest that these two were close friends or that Jorah was 100% in Danys trust. In fact the opposite is implied multiple times. So HBO is being massively inconsistent in its adaptation. It deliberately and consciously removed any and all scenes from Storm of Swords which might suggest Danys perception of Jorah.




The book has many scenes between Dany and Jorah that make this relationship self evident and not require such a dumb explanation. The only reason they have done this is that there has been absolutely nothing for show Jorah to do. He stopped being a character in season 3, Dany and him have had nothing to do with eachother. Now that hes close to being exiled the show is forced to have Emilia Clarke bluntly explain how her character is meant to view Jorah at this stage in the story. Its absolute bullshit. Dany in the books did not need to say something as dumb and stupid as that.




The problem is that Jorah has as much screen time and lines as Grey Worm and Missandei since season 2. They have focused completely on first introducing new characters and from half way through season 3 an obsessive focus on Daario. Literally, every single scene with Daenerys in every episode has focused almost exclusively on their relationship; long before it becomes relevant in the books. In season 4 episodes 1 & 3 the show demonstrates this again. Adding extra material and rewriting whole chapters purely so that Daario can be the only character that matters in Danys story. There was PLENTY of time to focus and develop Danys relationship with Daario once Jorahs exiled. Especially since it looks like she is taking Meeren in episode 4 when Jorah should have been exiled.



This, complete butchery of Jorahs storyline aside, was in season 3 passable as its exclusion didn't go against the story they were trying to tell. But they are going to exile Jorah this season. To go into that event without any interaction or character moments between them beyond dumb useless info dumps like Dany having to remind us how her character feels about this random extra shes had nothing to do with since season 2 is stupid. Why delay Jorahs exile to be later in the series if you obviously don't want to tell the characters story as GRRM wrote it? Just get rid of him and be done with it. You can't just have his exile stand on its own as a random reveal. Its counter intuitive. Its not going to be climatic if Dany exiles the random extra who hasn't done or said anything for 2 seasons? Its like in Breaking Bad. Watching the "I am the one who knocks scene" in isolation without having watched the series and the building tension between the characters develop will never have as much impact.


Edited by Tyrion1991
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For me, the most disturing was the reaction of the public to the Jamie/Cercei scene, because I thought it was clearly rape. And I found it very odd that people didn't considerer it that way.

And I'm talking just about the tv series, as I havent read the books.

It jars the show-only people worst, and I can see it causing a divide.

Without giving too much away if you do want to read, the book counterpart of that scene was tumultuous, forceful, (still) incestous and with a touch of necro now, but definitely not rape.

Perhaps the show could have made a subtle change in the scene to make this more clear.

Still ... Lannisters + sex = squick. It is known.

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I'm going to be mad if they just skip the trial and go straight to the trial by combat. First of all the trial is pretty pivotal with Shae's betrayal of Tyrion. Second, I thought it was very dramatic having Oberyn talk with Tyrion and then reveal that he won't help him as his judge, but as his champion. That was a huge fist pump moment for me when I read ASOS. All the impact of that scene will be lost if the idea is already brought up beforehand.


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I'm going to be mad if they just skip the trial and go straight to the trial by combat. First of all the trial is pretty pivotal with Shae's betrayal of Tyrion. Second, I thought it was very dramatic having Oberyn talk with Tyrion and then reveal that he won't help him as his judge, but as his champion. That was a huge fist pump moment for me when I read ASOS. All the impact of that scene will be lost if the idea is already brought up beforehand.

They won't, I think. We've had bits from Tyrion's speech at the trial in various trailers.

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Don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet since I haven't read through all if the replies, but does anyone else think the kid played by Brennik O'Connor is going to take on Satin's role a little bit and be the one to shoot Yigritte with a crossbow? She shot his dad in the head and he was staring her down while crying under that wagon. I think it would be great if he could get a little revenge for his murdered and canibalized parents!

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