[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

[Zman1863]

I don't have too much problem with the Tyrion/Pod scene. As Ran said, the show and the book present different situations. In the book Pod is completely under the radar while in the show, he is not. I think if presented with such a situation, book Tyrion would not have been as indifferent to Pod at the end as he had been.

Still, in general, D&D seem to be set in their ways in how they portray characters. They are hell bent on portraying a sympathetic Cersei, bad Jaime, bad Stannis and good Tyrion.

[johnnysd]

i have to say this episode is making me think shireen might really have a chance at winning this thing! so many changes to a book character are met with moaning and groaning but making shireen more of a round, dynamic character is a great improvement, imho.

I have thought for a long time that in the end Shireen sits the Iron Throne. The direction and scenes with her in the show are strengthening those thoughts.

Great episode. Cersei's consent should have been clearer but there will be 100,000 angst riddled posts of indignation about it. Recasting Tommen was a good call it seems. Tywins scene with him was awesome. I predict a Tower of Joy tree vision this year.

[marsyao]

Because she knows that KL is the worst place for her to live? Besides, Dontos says it clear: if she doesn't follow him, she might die. Maybe Sansa thought she might have died for real if staying, like they were meant to be all murdered, like the Red Wedding.

If that is so, Sansa would have gone with the Hound in the night of battle of balckwater bay, at least she knew the Hound well, and she knew the Hound was always kind to her

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If that is so, Sansa would have gone with the Hound in the night of battle of balckwater bay, at least she knew the Hound well, and she knew the Hound was always kind to her

Sansa wasn't there the same person she is now.

[1234567]

What did he do in the books that was so bad? I love Tyrion btw so maybe I'm blind to his evilness? He is a shit sometimes but I felt like he was a pretty decent guy in the books...

Covering for Jaime and Cersei over Bran's "accident"

Winding Thorne up just because he can

Breaking Marillion's fingers (for mocking him, despite Tyrion doing this to others)

Finding Masha Heddles murder amusing

Giving the antler men, without trial to Joff to "play with"

Letting the Mountain men rape and murder in KL (arming them so they are now raping and murdering in the vale)

Hitting Shae

Being part of the forced marriage to Sansa (breaking his sworn oath to exchange her for Jaime)

Kidnapping Tommen and threatening to rape him

Organising for Myrcella to go to Dorne

The general pity parties

And all that is before we get to Essos and the rape of a slave that takes place.

Edit: Forgot about Singer Stew. He could have sent Shae away.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rapsie

[NightStark]

If that is so, Sansa would have gone with the Hound in the night of battle of balckwater bay, at least she knew the Hound well, and she knew the Hound was always kind to her

She didn't go with him because she thought it was a trap...if you were her and a king who people know you have a grievance with is dying and someone tells you 'come with me if you want to live'..you're going to go unless you want your neck snipped.

Edited April 21, 2014 by NightStark

[Darth Pipes]

Tyrion is a pretty good guy given his upbringing and the society he lives in, but he's also the guy who, among other things, had a guy who tried to extort him murdered and then disposed of the body in a public food source (YUCK!). That's not really a "decent guy" sort of thing to do in my book.

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. Add to that that Book Tyrion is deeply misogynistic among other things.

[Rill Redthorn]

Still, in general, D&D seem to be set in their ways in how they portray characters. They are hell bent on portraying a sympathetic Cersei, bad Jaime, bad Stannis and good Tyrion.

Yeah, I think that's a shame. It's like they don't trust their TV audience to appreciate complex characters or something. Given that uncomplicated good/evil characters have been the staple (and bane) of fantasy literature for decades, one of the most refreshing things about ASOIAF is exactly how complex and nuanced and human GRRM's characters are, and they're squandering that treasure in some ways. *sigh*.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Tyrion is a pretty good guy given his upbringing and the society he lives in, but he's also the guy who, among other things, had a guy who tried to extort him murdered and then disposed of the body in a public food source (YUCK!). That's not really a "decent guy" sort of thing to do in my book.

Haha! Yeah I suppose not but it was to protect Shae. That has to count for something right? I guess I get so wrapped up in all the other evils in KL that Tyrion seems not so bad. I think he usually tries to do the right thing but he hasn't really ever been taught the right thing so he kind of has to figure it out on his own.

[PhoenixFlame]

Jaime. Does. Not. Rape. Cersei. Goddamn it he's practically her bitch. WHY?! Everyone here knows I'm down with most show changes. Most times I get, from a TV narrative perspective, why they tweaked things. I'm sooooo confused now! I don't see why Cersei couldn't be reluctant at first but clearly get turned on and dive in for some griefsex. She's feeling a ton of emotions and Jaime's right there and they're emotionally pretty codependent. I'd buy it if they sort of lost it and had rough-and-tumble sex that was full of raw emotion, psychologically unhealthy, but dammit they're broken people and sometimes they seem to fill each others' cracks. FUCK.

-quick breath-

Back to scheduled hashing.

I really like Tommen. His interaction with Tywin was so so so good. I loved how Tywin was getting his measure, a bit like Halfhand in the books gained Jon's measure by leaving him with Ygritte. Mostly curious to see what he would do. But still he's Tywin so he's not going to take Tommen out for a root beer float and praise his shitty crayon drawings. He's gonna tell him what's what. I was really drunk while watching this so I need to rewatch for deeper facial observations, but it seemed like Tywin was breathing an internal sigh of relief when Tommen arrived at the correct answer with minimal prompting. Plus, Tommen's a cutie patootie. I really bought Cersei's broken grief too. So sad she'll ask her father to stop talking about her son, but also so shattered she won't do a thing to stop him from doing it. Fuck man.

JON! MIP!!!!! Fuck yes this is the Jon I started liking in ADWD! I loved him agreeing with Thorne. It especially works if Thorne is replacing some of Noye' role. They might dislike each other but for Jon it's important to learn that you can work with people you dislike if you put on your big-boy boxers and look at the issues. Also giggled at Gold Cloak Fucker getting all fist-pumpy. Oh my fucking sweetheart you want to make friends...hahaha no most likely you're responsible for some of these scumbags ending up at the Wall in the first place.

Arya and the Hound! Ahahahaha Arya being quick to pretend to be Sandor's daughter cracked me up. She is learning how to act and assume a persona...total potential for being an assassin. The Hound was in raging dick mode but he had a point. Jeez if that daddy dude had stopped to tell Locke to GTFO his land, he'd be listening to Baby Ramsay stories as Locke broke his kneecaps. Also, the Hound being affectionate to Stranger! D'awwww! It also seems like the Hound is somewhat getting used to the idea of Arya sticking with him, regardless of what distant kin she has. Kind of cute in a weird way. Lol, I'm imaging Sellsword Adventures with Sandor and his Bitchy Squire. Speaking of squires...

POD! OMG Pod becoming a man! Surely the work of his ladyfriends. I loved him sneaking in Tyrion decent food. Yeah sure Tyrion's whitewashed, yadayada not a thing that can be done to change it so I'm not judging. As it stands, I liked their interaction. Tyrion doesn't tell him to accept the offer, 'cause heck no he's no martyr for stupid causes, but tells Pod to run for it. Nice setup for his adventuring with Brienne...I think she and Pod are really well-matched in terms of loyalty.

Oh, loyalty! Not Littlefinger! WTF. Gillian is such a damn troll with his "LULZ! It's not creepy it's paternal!" Weird that LF's suddenly Irish but hahahaha he looks like he wants to slam Sansa against the ship rail and make out with her. Can't resist showing off by fucking up her jewelry, as it gives him a chance to touch her neck.

Amused to see Margaery speak of her fanon "curse" regarding hubbies. Nice to see her seeming more her age than the calm cool manipulator. She's good and she's savvy, but like Black Widow, she only pretends to know everything.

Unlike Oberyn who does know everything. As a lady with similar preferences, I had to tip my glass. Cool too to see Ellaria more amused than anything at Olyvar's attempt at kissing a lady. He's rather charming, truth be told. His bantering with Oberyn was amusing, as was Ellaria getting a bit friskier and claiming her man. D'aaaw! Then in comes Tywin and I nearly died at Oberyn's "seat" comment. Obviously Tywin was implying he'd give Oberyn a murderfest of the Mountain (and probs refer him to Roose Bolton for some l33t torture tips) if he helped condemn Tyrion. I actually really liked Tywin acknowledging the realm is in far deeper shit than he's let on. I kinda feel sorry for him, having to smirk and make light when shit's getting real. Maybe he should get some help...

...Like Westeros' ball-busting Shireen. OMG I squeed so loud at how pissy she was getting. She is such her daddy's daughter and it's adorable and made me feel warm fuzzies for Stannis. "RAWR don't mouth the words you're not a child!!!!" Yeah the "Iron Bank Eureka!!!" moment was a little heavy-handed but the non book-reader hasn't gotten a big picture of the Iron Bank so a little bluntness helps with clarity and establishes some connective tissue. Whatever eyerolls I had died when Davos kissed Shireen's forehead. Stannis, you'd better rekindle your bromance on the boat-ride to Braavos, 'cause right now you're being a dick.

Speaking of dicks, or rather a lack of, imma still eyerolling at Dany's "FREE DAH SLAVES" speeches...especially since I didn't see any trailing group of freed Yunkai slaves...maybe they all died of starvation since it's not like Dany's heard of "supply trains." But she was cool telling her advisers why she wouldn't spend them. Fuck Dany, this moment was about new!Daario. And screw canon, I'm ok with Daario not being a creepy-ass Eurotrash greaseball. I LIKE the Mereenese Blot's theory he's an embodiment of war and you're supposed to be thinking "Dany wtf bb girl y r u doing this?!" but I feel that way enough about Dany already so adding a stoopid boyfriend is only going to be more irritating...in short I like the TV's version of Daario being charming, but still with a commoner's streak. Fuck Strong Belwas that Scrappy did nothing but remind me of a watered down version of that Sumo guy from the Jackie Chan Adventures. I liked how Daario didn't even give Mr. Plume de Lance a chance to get up.

Here endeth my self-righteous rambling?

Edited April 21, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, I think that's a shame. It's like they don't trust their TV audience to appreciate complex characters or something. Given that uncomplicated good/evil characters have been the staple (and bane) of fantasy literature for decades, one of the most refreshing things about ASOIAF is exactly how complex and nuanced and human GRRM's characters are, and they're squandering that treasure in some ways. *sigh*.

I don't think they don't trust us, it's because they don't have the time we have. GRRM can count with hundreds of pages to define a character, they have only 55 minutes and they need to rush, even if some actions are over the top and less ambiguous that in the books.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I like how Team Dany is all "Lemme take this chump on!" and shes all "You lot are too valuable." But Daario is all "Im not." and shes all "K, Go for it, hot stuff." and he does. It made me smile. Plus Dany makes a really great face during that scene where shes all staring up at the Meereen wall. If someone has a gif of it, ill love them 5ever. She was practicing that face.

Jaime/Cersei scene, its squicky as all hell regardless how you cut the mustard. And its a hatefuck on top of it. He really is beginning to loathe Cersei in a way. Its a very grim way of showing it too. It makes the scene all the more uncomfortable as it should be. Cersei is obviously objecting because of where they are. Cuz come on...Its not "No i dont want to screw" as much as "No i dont want to screw here." The scene was really just dueagh. Even if she was not protesting too much, it would still be dueagh.

Sandor and Arya slayed me. Arya is getting quick on the draw with lying. Sandor proves that hes still a shit. A pointy turd too.

Sam taking Gilly to Mole's Town irked me but oh well.

One big complained. My Douchey McNitpick of the evening?

FUCK YOU, LITTLEFINGER FOR SMUSHING CHEKHOV'S NECKLACE! YOU BASTARD!!

[Baitac]

I'm confused. In the book, Joffrey was poisoned by a jewel from Sansa's net, a net that had been given her by the Queen of Thorns. In the show, Littlefinger had the necklace created, it was then passed on to Dontos and on to Sansa. TQoT slipped the jewel out of the necklace. Does tis mean that Littlefinger and the Queen of Thornes worked together? I didn't get that sense from the book.

[Newstar]

Oh, loyalty! Not Littlefinger! WTF. Gillian is such a damn troll with his "LULZ! It's not creepy it's paternal!"

Indeed. "Paternal"? "Avuncular"? LIES!

Weird that LF's suddenly Irish but hahahaha he looks like he wants to slam Sansa against the ship rail and make out with her. Can't resist showing off by fucking up her jewelry, as it gives him a chance to touch her neck.

It half-looked like he was leaning in for a kiss.

[Colonel Green]

I'm confused. In the book, Joffrey was poisoned by a jewel from Sansa's net, a net that had been given her by the Queen of Thorns. In the show, Littlefinger had the necklace created, it was then passed on to Dontos and on to Sansa. TQoT slipped the jewel out of the necklace. Does tis mean that Littlefinger and the Queen of Thornes worked together? I didn't get that sense from the book.

Um, no, the Queen of Thorns did not give Sansa the hairnet in the book. Dontos did. And Littlefinger explicitly said that he and Olenna were in league (or, rather, that he'd manipulated her into doing what he wanted).

[PhoenixFlame]

I'm confused. In the book, Joffrey was poisoned by a jewel from Sansa's net, a net that had been given her by the Queen of Thorns. In the show, Littlefinger had the necklace created, it was then passed on to Dontos and on to Sansa. TQoT slipped the jewel out of the necklace. Does tis mean that Littlefinger and the Queen of Thornes worked together? I didn't get that sense from the book.

Ja they were in cahoots.

[Rill Redthorn]

I'm confused. In the book, Joffrey was poisoned by a jewel from Sansa's net, a net that had been given her by the Queen of Thorns. In the show, Littlefinger had the necklace created, it was then passed on to Dontos and on to Sansa. TQoT slipped the jewel out of the necklace. Does tis mean that Littlefinger and the Queen of Thornes worked together? I didn't get that sense from the book.

I definitely got that sense from the book, because if LF didn't tip off Olenna, how would she know that those "purple amethysts" were actually crystallized poison? She had to have some foreknowledge, and LF was the only source for it. I can't see it making any sense for Olenna to just suddenly notice out of the blue, "Oh hey, Sansa Stark is wearing poison crystals in her hair. What an unusual fashion choice. Perhaps I'll help myself to one and use it to poison my odious grandson-in-law." She had to have known. Ergo she and LF were in on it together. See?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Covering for Jaime and Cersei over Bran's "accident"

Winding Thorne up just because he can

Breaking Marillion's fingers

Finding Masha Heddles murder amusing

Giving the antler men, without trial to Joff to "play with"

Letting the Mountain men rape and murder in KL (arming them so they are now raping and murdering in the vale)

Hitting Shae

Being part of the forced marriage to Sansa (breaking his sworn oath to exchange her for Jaime)

Kidnapping Tommen and threatening to rape him

Organising for Myrcella to go to Dorne

The general pity parties

And all that is before we get to Essos and the rape of a slave that takes place.

Jaime & Cersei are his siblings. I mean its a bad thing yes but no good would've come from telling on them.

Is Marillion the creepy singer with Lysa?

What could he do to stop the mountain men?

He never has the chance to exchange Sansa for Jaime she is gone by the time Jaimee gets there.

He would never really have raped Tommen he was just playing up the "I'm an evil monster" that Cersei believes he is in an attempt to keep the whore safe.

Sending Myrcella to Dorne was one of the best things he could do! It kept her safe from the upcoming battle in KL. Out of the influence of her wicked mother & formed an alliance with Dorne... how was that bad?

[Stannis I]

I'm confused. In the book, Joffrey was poisoned by a jewel from Sansa's net, a net that had been given her by the Queen of Thorns. In the show, Littlefinger had the necklace created, it was then passed on to Dontos and on to Sansa. TQoT slipped the jewel out of the necklace. Does tis mean that Littlefinger and the Queen of Thornes worked together? I didn't get that sense from the book.

QoT never gave the hairnet to Sansa, It was a gift from Dontos, both in the book and in TV show. The only change is it became a necklace. The book implies the LF/QoT thing.

[Booknerd2]

Daniel Portman was fantastic tonight.