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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

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As far as Coldhands is concerned, GRRM stated that he is much much older, when asked about who he is, relating to Benjen. So, the author himself has said Benjen is not Coldhands.

Strong Belwas, eh, no big loss. He was a colorful character but he really only existed to get Barriston to Dany, and since the tv show couldn't hide who he was like the book could, there was no reason for the extra charater. I think I prefer Daario killing the champion anyway, lends more to Dany liking him.

I wonder who’s going to be the locust-eater now.

After all, it was Strong Belwas’s enormity that saved his life.

Plus wasn’t Daario the Darling off being a hostage by then already?

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I rewatched the episode this evening. The rape was less rapey the second time around, but if D&D didn't mean it to be a rape, why was it so uncomfortable to shoot? Sounds like a bunch of baloney to me.



Frankly, the amount of sexual violence directed at women in the books especially is beyond appalling. Despite this, I am a fan of the show and have read and reread the books. But I am under no illusions: this story reinforces violence against women and generally denigrates women far, far more than men.



Cersei is ambivalent in that scene in the books, but D&D have set her up to reject Jaime in the series and she has already by berating him for taking so long to get back to her.



I love NCW so it is really hard for me not to like this character even after what he has done. Bran was unforgivable. Just unforgivable.



Killing the King, well now we understand that. He should have told the truth: he set his suffering up out of stupid pride.



Killing his cousin: stupid and cruel.



I am addicted to the show because of Arya mainly. I simply fell in love with her character from the very beginning. Watching her go all dark is incredibly painful.



I am hoping that D&D can bring some resolution to this story before Martin and/or I croak. In the meantime, I am trying to write my own version in my head. Pretty difficult with so many sociopaths behind and on the screen messing it all up.



So there and yes, I am very cranky right now.


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I like how they had Oberyn bring up Old Nan's story about how the sky is blue because they live in the eye of a blue eyed giant.

Anyone one know what color GRRM's eyes are?

If they're blue, then he's the "giant".

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But I am under no illusions: this story reinforces violence against women and generally denigrates women far, far more than men.

>.> The story points out and underscores violence against women and also addresses such issues with men. (See Reek for details. Sam too.) You are making it out as if the series itself is a pile of misogyny when in truth, GRRM is trying to point it out, examine it, and show you how fucked up it is.

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You know its occurs to me that this season could well be subtitled "violence against women"



Cersei. -raped by her bf


Shae - killed by her ex bf


Lysa - killed by her husband


Ygritte killed .......(by her ex ?)


Brienne - a fight where she bites someones ear off.


Sansa - general creeping by LF

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>.> The story points out and underscores violence against women and also addresses such issues with men. (See Reek for details. Sam too.) You are making it out as if the series itself is a pile of misogyny when in truth, GRRM is trying to point it out, examine it, and show you how fucked up it is.

I am simply pointing out what is on the page. GRRM may think he is pointing out violence against women, but he is reinforcing it.

It is very easy to write about violence against women or anyone so as to work against it. Child's play: simply write it from the perspective of the victim. Martin rarely, if ever, does that.

Instead, we watch the violence from another point of view. Theon might be an example of the reverse, but Theon is a male.

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You know its occurs to me that this season could well be subtitled "violence against women"

Cersei. -raped by her bf

Shae - killed by her ex bf

Lysa - killed by her husband

Ygritte killed .......(by her ex ?)

Brienne - a fight where she bites someones ear off.

Sansa - general creeping by LF

You know its occurs to me that this season could well be subtitled "violence against men"

Joffrey - Poisoned by his mother in law

Tywin - Murdered by his own son

Theon - Tortured and turned into Gollum

Oberyn - Gets his face smashed in

The Mountain - Poisoned and dies an excruciating death

The Hound - Wounded in battle and left for dead

--

Violence is equally dealt to men, women and children in this story. It's a brutal world. Cut the bullshit.

Edited by Blood Loss

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>.> The story points out and underscores violence against women and also addresses such issues with men. (See Reek for details. Sam too.) You are making it out as if the series itself is a pile of misogyny when in truth, GRRM is trying to point it out, examine it, and show you how fucked up it is.

Gonna be a hoot when we get to Season 5 and Brienne runs into Randyl Tarly.

Neither rain nor snow nor sleet nor dark of night will keep me from reading internet reactions on that day.

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You know its occurs to me that this season could well be subtitled "violence against women"

Cersei. -raped by her bf

Shae - killed by her ex bf

Lysa - killed by her husband

Ygritte killed .......(by her ex ?)

Brienne - a fight where she bites someones ear off.

Sansa - general creeping by LF

Nah, some people have come to the conclusion (that seems pretty plausible) that the little boy will kill Ygritte.

She killed his father and we see him getting a good look at her (memorising her face) so I think this could be the person who shoots that arrow. It would add more depth to her death and I don't think the show will have Jon kill Ygritte, especially with Tyrion taking out Shae this season.

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Violence is equally dealt to men, women and children in this story. Cut the bullshit.

Look, it is okay to like your toys as a famous posting on all this has made abundantly clear, but pretending they are something they are not is the true bullshit.

Show me the man raped fifty times and then denigrated for it in this series?

And don't even get started on the shit thrown at Dany for taking Daario as a lover while everyone swoons over Oberyn's bisexual orgies.

And let's not get into a discussion about how Dany falls for Drogo because he what?? woos her and wins her 13 year old self?? Or how that couldn't even be filmed in England because the laws wouldn't allow that to be shown even with an of age actress.

Why do fans have to deny all this? Does it make them feel bad to like a narrative that works this way? What is the investment in denying what is going on?

Do we all feel pure and unsullied like Stannis now?

Edited by BlueDragon

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>.> The story points out and underscores violence against women and also addresses such issues with men. (See Reek for details. Sam too.) You are making it out as if the series itself is a pile of misogyny when in truth, GRRM is trying to point it out, examine it, and show you how fucked up it is.

I don't think GRRM could have been more clear that the Jaime- Cersei sept sex was not rape in the book and he had nothing to do with the scene in the show.

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Look, it is okay to like your toys as a famous posting on all this has made abundantly clear, but pretending they are something they are not is the true bullshit.

Show me the man raped fifty times and then denigrated for it in this series?

Victarion allowing crew to gang rape the Maester.

Also, Satin got some dodgy stares...but at least he has Jon to protect him. :wub:

I also count the Unsullied being castrated as a form of sexual abuse.

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This is a story, that is at times less than it seems, at times more than we had hoped for , and always only what it is, a story. This needs to be called " The Subjective song of Ice and Fire", though that would take all the fun out this...


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Margaery not knowing about the murder was stupid.

I don't know, Lady Ollenna told Marge to be very careful about what she says, even to her, just a couple of episodes ago. I think that there was a lot that went unsaid during that conversation, so I think its very possible that she knows after the fact or at least that she suspects, she just did not come out and say it or hint at it because it would be a really bad time to do it. I think there was some code talking going on there at least that's my take.

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Victarion allowing crew to gang rape the Maester.

Also, Satin got some dodgy stares...but at least he has Jon to protect him. :wub:

I also count the Unsullied being castrated as a form of sexual abuse.

It is interesting to think of castration as a form of sexual abuse. I would have to say in our world, it definitely is. Especially when considering the purposes eunuch have been used for. In this narrative, it seems like more of a move to totally dehumanize and removing sexuality is just one of the various ways that was accomplished.

Do people in the story and fans then howl with laughter at the Maester?

Satin was denigrated because of his prostitution and implicit homosexuality, not his gender.

I stand on my origin post: if you want to write/work against abuse, you create the narrative FROM THE VICTIM'S POINT OF VIEW. Period. End of discussion.

Start quoting me some sections that do that and then we have something important to talk about.

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Gonna be a hoot when we get to Season 5 and Brienne runs into Randyl Tarly.

Neither rain nor snow nor sleet nor dark of night will keep me from reading internet reactions on that day.

:lmao:

Nah, some people have come to the conclusion (that seems pretty plausible) that the little boy will kill Ygritte.

She killed his father and we see him getting a good look at her (memorising her face) so I think this could be the person who shoots that arrow. It would add more depth to her death and I don't think the show will have Jon kill Ygritte, especially with Tyrion taking out Shae this season.

Hey i really like this theory btw.

I don't think GRRM could have been more clear that the Jaime- Cersei sept sex was not rape in the book and he had nothing to do with the scene in the show.

Uagh im talking about the books, you nincompoop. The guy i was responding to was saying GRRM's intent was nothing but violence against women.

I stand on my origin post: if you want to write/work against abuse, you create the narrative FROM THE VICTIM'S POINT OF VIEW. Period. End of discussion.

I take it you completely ignored Sam's POV, parts of Tyrion's where he and others address his dwarfism, and Theon's entire arc in ADWD. gg, chief. :rolleyes:

Edited by Florina Laufeyson

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There is another thread to discuss the scene between Cersei and Jaime. It goes for about 60 pages already... /rolleyes. Some of us don't want to discuss THAT specific part of the story, really. Not because it's wrong, uncomfortable or morally ambiguous but because it's TEDIOUS to hear the same arguments for 60 fucking pages. NO ONE here thinks rape is good, I'm quite sure of that. And if someone feels "morally" superior now because they condemn Jaime because of what he did, then what kind of person you were if you thought he was still ok when he pushed a kid through a window so he could keep fucking his own sister?

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