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Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

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There is another thread to discuss the scene between Cersei and Jaime. It goes for about 60 pages already... /rolleyes. Some of us don't want to discuss THAT specific part of the story, really. Not because it's wrong, uncomfortable or morally ambiguous but because it's TEDIOUS to hear the same arguments for 60 fucking pages. NO ONE here thinks rape is good, I'm quite sure of that. And if someone feels "morally" superior now because they condemn Jaime because of what he did, then what kind of person you were if you thought he was still ok when he pushed a kid through a window so he could keep fucking his own sister?

This guy right here. Cheers, mate.

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:lmao:

Hey i really like this theory btw.

Uagh im talking about the books, you nincompoop. The guy i was responding to was saying GRRM's intent was nothing but violence against women.

:

First, I'm not Sour. Second watch the name calling. I won't have it.

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Why not? King Thanduil rides an (Irish) elk in The Hobbit movies.

While GoT has a giant budget even by HBO standards, they don't have The Hobbit's budget. :)

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I take it you completely ignored Sam's POV, parts of Tyrion's where he and others address his dwarfism, and Theon's entire arc in ADWD. gg, chief. :rolleyes:

Quote me a quote from anywhere in books or series where the story of a female's victimization is being told from the point of view of the female at the time of the victimization itself.

Sam, Theon, Tyrion are all males.

Even if you find a few, they won't balance the scales, but it would be interesting to discuss how those depictions differ and what the audience reaction is likely to be.

Simple: female victim point of view in her own voice at the time of victimization.

The point of view perspective is how the reader comes to sympathize with Theon after he has destroyed Winterfell (via Ramsay), killing two innocent boys in the process and sending the North spiraling out of control.

Jamie losing his hand via point of view and confessing about his kingslayer status changes the game completely.

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It doesnt really matter though because the character isnt in the show. So, its highly unlikely that was his mount.

Even moreso since he rode an elk and not a horse.

I wasn't aware there was an announcement that Coldhands had been cut. Could you link that please? Or did you get screeners for the entire season? Edited by Moët

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Quote me a quote from anywhere in books or series where the story of a female's victimization is being told from the point of view of the female at the time of the victimization itself.

Sam, Theon, Tyrion are all males.

Even if you find a few, they won't balance the scales, but it would be interesting to discuss how those depictions differ and what the audience reaction is likely to be.

Simple: female victim point of view in her own voice at the time of victimization.

The point of view perspective is how the reader comes to sympathize with Theon after he has destroyed Winterfell (via Ramsay), killing two innocent boys in the process and sending the North spiraling out of control.

Jamie losing his hand via point of view and confessing about his kingslayer status changes the game completely.

Omg.

Go ahead. Read Dany's arc where shes repeatedly abused by Viserys in the first book. Sansa's entire story throughout the series. She is a constant victim. Arya nearly gets raped a couple of times and gets beaten quite a bit over the course of her tale. Stop with your worthless Social Justice Warrior crap. It doesnt fucking hold.

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Quote me a quote from anywhere in books or series where the story of a female's victimization is being told from the point of view of the female at the time of the victimization itself.

Literally Every Sansa Chapter In The Series

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There's also the first half of Arianne Martell's last chapter, where she's not only thrown in solitary confinement but cut off from that most basic of human psychological needs because Doran (her own dad) won't even let her gaolers and attendees even talk to her.

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I think the problem with this lies on the fact that some readers might perceive Jaime as someone he isn't. I've read some comments about how this make him take a "step back" in his redemption arc. How is that exactly? Jaime hasn't yet changed. He has changed his attitude TOWARDS Brienne, that's not the same. Even the worst people in Westeros have a soft for somebody else. When Jaime first arrives to KL in books, he still is quite annoyed by Brienne's presence, even though he does cares about her. He calls Joffrey "squirt of seed", he barely felt anything about his dead, he wanted to marry Cersei (which probably would start more wars) and even having more children with her. In Show is different but the feeling is the same, he gets to KL and realise how powerless he is: no one recognises him, her sister/lover pushes him aside and blames him for leaving, Joffrey mocked him, Trant mocked him, his father wants him to give up the only thing he actually likes, even Brienne nags him about Sansa and on top of that, he can't do the one thing he enjoys besides Cersei: fight. He's POWERLESS. Rape -in fiction- is about power. Another King died under his watch, Cersei doesn't even let him be around Joffrey when he dies (once more, he pushes him). So, he takes it on Cersei who is now finally powerless as he is. He's broken in book and show and he's not the only character who cracks when broken. Loras killed two men when Renly died, I don't see him being chastised as much as Jaime has.

I'm not giving up on Satin yet. Oh wait, he has no kink in the books

How terrible would be that HBO keeps bringing invented whores but won't give us the one who is real and actually nice just because he doesn't have any sexual scenes.

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Man...


Now i really want to know how Edd and Grenn got out of Craster's. I bet that would be a pretty awesome side-story. Shame it happened off screen.


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Man...

Now i really want to know how Edd and Grenn got out of Craster's. I bet that would be a pretty awesome side-story. Shame it happened off screen.

Sounds like a prime excuse to give Edd a bunch of lines (and maybe not have background noise drowning him out so we can actually fucking hear his verbal glory for once) in the name of EXPOSITION!

really, that's the worst sin in this adapation: not whitewashing of Tyrion, not the negative portrayal of Stannis, not Dany Never Struggling With Anything, Ever....

...it's all the other jabronies on screen not SHUTTING THE FUCK UP when The Edd is talking (and Edd not talking enough).

Edited by Sour Robin

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Omg.

Go ahead. Read Dany's arc where shes repeatedly abused by Viserys in the first book. Sansa's entire story throughout the series. She is a constant victim. Arya nearly gets raped a couple of times and gets beaten quite a bit over the course of her tale. Stop with your worthless Social Justice Warrior crap. It doesnt fucking hold.

You know, I really don't like you at all but that doesn't matter in the least. I won't remember who you are because I don't care in the least.

Your dismissal of what you so arrogantly call Social Justice Warrior crap makes you despicable. You can't write a coherent refutal, so you resort to name calling.

It is true that I wrote victimization when I meant rape. I am very, very tired right now and it is not easy to keep a discussion on track when respondents constantly swerve off the main point.

I've stayed away from posting this stuff here because I know and can imagine what dissention it does and can cause.

I'm not in the mood to continue this non discussion and you have nothing to say anyhow except: get out with that crap as if your crap smells like a Tyrell rose.

I will repeat one time: what frightens people so much when they contemplate that this narrative has these issues?

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Man...

Now i really want to know how Edd and Grenn got out of Craster's. I bet that would be a pretty awesome side-story. Shame it happened off screen.

Okay this is where I got really confused.

Didn't Sam and Gilly tell Maester Aemon about the uprising? Hence the splitting of 'Little Piggy' and Ms Gilly & son...

Are you telling me Sam had no clue what was happening at Crasters when he straight high tailed it? This seems like the whole mutiny thing should have been known about already and miraculous Ed & Grenn survive yet again!

Ed as King, Grenn as Hand of the King. The End.

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How terrible would be that HBO keeps bringing invented whores but won't give us the one who is real and actually nice just because he doesn't have any sexual scenes.

Heheh. You're right. The fact that Satin is a whore who doesn't have any sex scenes probably means there's no chance the character will appear.

Speaking of whores...we have Oberyn hanging out with them constantly. In the book, there's one brief mention that he known to have relations with men and women. Well, that was enough to get D and D excited and now Oberyn's bisexuality is his defining trait in his first three appearances on the show.

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Perplexing indeed. In the book this is the first time Jamie seems to get a sense of how much Cersei uses their relationship to manipulate him. Getting tired of HBO putting her on a pedestal.

Agreed. Making Jaime out to be a rapist is really going to change how people view him in the show compared to the books. Not happy about the change.

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I rewatched the episode this evening. The rape was less rapey the second time around, but if D&D didn't mean it to be a rape, why was it so uncomfortable to shoot? Sounds like a bunch of baloney to me.

Frankly, the amount of sexual violence directed at women in the books especially is beyond appalling. Despite this, I am a fan of the show and have read and reread the books. But I am under no illusions: this story reinforces violence against women and generally denigrates women far, far more than men.

Cersei is ambivalent in that scene in the books, but D&D have set her up to reject Jaime in the series and she has already by berating him for taking so long to get back to her.

I love NCW so it is really hard for me not to like this character even after what he has done. Bran was unforgivable. Just unforgivable.

Killing the King, well now we understand that. He should have told the truth: he set his suffering up out of stupid pride.

Killing his cousin: stupid and cruel.

I am addicted to the show because of Arya mainly. I simply fell in love with her character from the very beginning. Watching her go all dark is incredibly painful.

I am hoping that D&D can bring some resolution to this story before Martin and/or I croak. In the meantime, I am trying to write my own version in my head. Pretty difficult with so many sociopaths behind and on the screen messing it all up.

So there and yes, I am very cranky right now.

The story is set in a time where women were less then horse shit, so, yes, it's undermining them. Also, in case people haven't noticed, bastards, cripples and little-people are treated alike.

It's not meant to be a comforting and reassuring story, but a brutal one, staged in a brutal era of a ruthless world.

Those offensive things, they actually happened in our world.

Ah, slavery is not a GRRM creation as well.

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Sounds like a prime excuse to give Edd a bunch of lines (and maybe not have background noise drowning him out so we can actually fucking hear his verbal glory for once) in the name of EXPOSITION!

really, that's the worst sin in this adapation: not whitewashing of Tyrion, not the negative portrayal of Stannis, not Dany Never Struggling With Anything, Ever....

...it's all the other jabronies on screen not SHUTTING THE FUCK UP when The Edd is talking (and Edd not talking enough).

lmao yeah. I love me some Edd and we need more Edd.

You know, I really don't like you at all but that doesn't matter in the least. I won't remember who you are because I don't care in the least.

Your dismissal of what you so arrogantly call Social Justice Warrior crap makes you despicable. You can't write a coherent refutal, so you resort to name calling.

It is true that I wrote victimization when I meant rape. I am very, very tired right now and it is not easy to keep a discussion on track when respondents constantly swerve off the main point.

I've stayed away from posting this stuff here because I know and can imagine what dissention it does and can cause.

I'm not in the mood to continue this non discussion and you have nothing to say anyhow except: get out with that crap as if your crap smells like a Tyrell rose.

I will repeat one time: what frightens people so much when they contemplate that this narrative has these issues?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHAH

Okay this is where I got really confused.

Didn't Sam and Gilly tell Maester Aemon about the uprising? Hence the splitting of 'Little Piggy' and Ms Gilly & son...

Are you telling me Sam had no clue what was happening at Crasters when he straight high tailed it? This seems like the whole mutiny thing should have been known about already and miraculous Ed & Grenn survive yet again!

Ed as King, Grenn as Hand of the King. The End.

Sam and Gilly knew what was up but they really didnt stick around for the details. I think Sam just didnt realize that there were guys still alive over there.

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