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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

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So is it cannon that Petyr Baelish has a really deep scratchy voice with an Irish tinge to it, but has changed his voice to be more pleasant and "English" around people in public?



Because his voice seems to change when he's alone with Varys and Sansa, yet he still talked with that lightened accent with Ros and the rest of the Kingslanding crew regardless of season. At least that's what I can remember of the old episodes...or maybe they just felt him actually being LF being an amiable fellow is much too subtle, need to make him a gravely voiced cartoon pedo.


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So is it cannon that Petyr Baelish has a really deep scratchy voice with an Irish tinge to it, but has changed his voice to be more pleasant and "English" around people in public?

Because his voice seems to change when he's alone with Varys and Sansa, yet he still talked with that lightened accent with Ros and the rest of the Kingslanding crew regardless of season. At least that's what I can remember of the old episodes...or maybe they just felt him actually being LF being an amiable fellow is much too subtle, need to make him a gravely voiced cartoon pedo.

Ehh im not so sure whats canon nowadays. Hue.

I do know that his accent and batman voice is irritating unsullied as well. Given the actor's track record, something tells me this was a direction choice, not an actor filigree.

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I think the problem with this lies on the fact that some readers might perceive Jaime as someone he isn't. I've read some comments about how this make him take a "step back" in his redemption arc. How is that exactly? Jaime hasn't yet changed. He has changed his attitude TOWARDS Brienne, that's not the same. Even the worst people in Westeros have a soft for somebody else. When Jaime first arrives to KL in books, he still is quite annoyed by Brienne's presence, even though he does cares about her. He calls Joffrey "squirt of seed", he barely felt anything about his dead, he wanted to marry Cersei (which probably would start more wars) and even having more children with her. In Show is different but the feeling is the same, he gets to KL and realise how powerless he is: no one recognises him, her sister/lover pushes him aside and blames him for leaving, Joffrey mocked him, Trant mocked him, his father wants him to give up the only thing he actually likes, even Brienne nags him about Sansa and on top of that, he can't do the one thing he enjoys besides Cersei: fight. He's POWERLESS. Rape -in fiction- is about power. Another King died under his watch, Cersei doesn't even let him be around Joffrey when he dies (once more, he pushes him). So, he takes it on Cersei who is now finally powerless as he is. He's broken in book and show and he's not the only character who cracks when broken. Loras killed two men when Renly died, I don't see him being chastised as much as Jaime has.

How terrible would be that HBO keeps bringing invented whores but won't give us the one who is real and actually nice just because he doesn't have any sexual scenes.

Olyvar is Satin...tiss known?

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Quick question; I might have missed something but, what is the show's excuse for Sam not mentioning his meeting Bran and gang to Jon? I mean, there's been no Coldhands.


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^Didnt Bran say "yo, no one must know im alive." or some junk?

Nope. It was debated last week. Kit said in some interview that he knows Bran is alive and he found out off camera. Hah.

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Strange that it hasn't been addressed. I'm sure a lot of show-only fans are quite confused. The show is starting to feel a little loose and underwhelming. I know it's a different medium, I know it's impossible to capture all that the written word brings, but I also can't help but feel that the show is slowly drifting away. But am I Enjoying it.? Yes.


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Nope. It was debated last week. Kit said in some interview that he knows Bran is alive and he found out off camera. Hah.

It probably makes sense if Jon is going beyond the Wall again, before the fight, to kill the NW members at Crasters. This may be the time when Bran opens his third eye and maybe we get some Jon-warging-Ghost as well (and Gohst, finally! after two seasons, it is high time to remind the audience that Jon has a direwolf, too). It would be sort of weird if that happens after Bran is dead (or so Jon thinks). Bran may even be able to communicate with Jon, and tell him that he shouldn't tell anyone he is alive and just leave him to do what he has to.

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So they have advitised this as being based on the second half of ASOS and yet so much AFFC has been and will be in this season, lol.


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So they have advitised this as being based on the second half of ASOS and yet so much AFFC has been and will be in this season, lol.

And ADWD as well - Bran's storyline. Some of Theon, too, if he goes to Moat Cailin with Ramsey.

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General thoughts on the episode. First the good:



> The Oberyn/Tywin scene was gold, and to be honest Tywin in general was probably the best thing about the episode.


> Meereen was good and I'm liking new Daario a lot more.


> Shireen/Davos is ever entertaining.


> Equal opportunity nudity. Sort of.


> Tyrion/Pod was brilliant.



The bad:


> The Jaime/Cersei scene for two reasons. Firstly it completely destroys Jaime's character arc. In the books that pretty much peaks at rescuing Brienne from the bear and then in the rest of SOS and AFFC we see Jaime coast along at an acceptable level of goodness. He doesn't do anything spectacularly redemptive ever again but by this point most of the audience likes him anyway. This scene completely changes that. Secondly Jaime's anger was so sudden as to be a non-sequiter. First he's calm and tender despite Cersei asking him to kill Tyrion and then he's...really not.


> Though well acted and not without character development the Arya/Hound scene(s) was too long for something with no plot development. The odd non-plot scene is fine if it furthers characterisation, but an entire triptych of scenes is too much.


> We get it, Oberyn likes sex.


> Far too much time spent on Gilly/Sam. I'd much rather they found some way to integrate Sam's arc into the rest of the stuff going on at the Wall a bit more. Maybe shift some of his politicking from his final chapter to before the battle, with him attempting to get Jon more accepted in the Watch again.


> Speaking of Jon the logic behind attack on Craster's doesn't really make any sense.


> The Dragonstone arc is really a mess. At the end of S3 the feeling is that Stannis is heading off to the Wall straight away, but now he's brooding on Dragonstone for weeks. It really hasn't been made clear that he is still planning to head for the Wall and just doesn't have the men for that. Most of the Unsullied believe he still wants men to claim the throne, and there's a lot of confusion and boredom.



The rest for me was rather neutral. Neither spectacular, nor terrible. And even most of those negative points weren't terrible. It falls slightly short after Joffrey's death, not answering or clearing up enough about that. And I'm worried for what the mid-season will hold because there seems to me to be a lack of truly gripping events until Oberyn vs. Gregor.


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Do you think it' possible that Jon and Bran will actually meet at Craster's? It could be a powerful and poignant scene, Jon having to let Bran go...


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Nope. It was debated last week. Kit said in some interview that he knows Bran is alive and he found out off camera. Hah.

Did he? Why do they do this. Some of the choices they make are really stupid.

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Personnaly i get that a tv show has to be less subtle, that some short cuts has to be found and that a tv show has specific pace and time constraints in order to be attractive while telling the story. In that regard, what happens in KL is greatly done. For exemple i didn't see a rape, the hole "it's wrong" and "not here" sounded feeble from cersei and i had the same wierd feeling as reading the book. The Arya arc is also very pleasant with cold realistic bastard Hound inspiring both possitive and hatred to arya, arya growing a bit too fast but that cannot be helped. The Petyr part with that voive changes is too vulgar for my taste, but i guess it is not that bad




What really annoys me, is the wall arc. Did i miss something in my readings? what's the point of sam bringing the girl to mole's town when he knows that they are wildlings arriving? What's that BS about going back to finish the crows in crasters keep? As if at this point the immediate threat was not those wildlings on the wrong side of the wall and as if anything would prevent mace to try and breach it whatever the numbers of the crows are on the other side?


I get that Jon is wise to counsel not to go figth the wildlings on their ground instead of castle black, but wasn't there the posibility for him to add that they could bring the mole's people in in order to protect them and so they could help with the defenses?



I don't understand where they are going with the wall or the point of the changes they made

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I think the problem with this lies on the fact that some readers might perceive Jaime as someone he isn't. I've read some comments about how this make him take a "step back" in his redemption arc. How is that exactly? Jaime hasn't yet changed. He has changed his attitude TOWARDS Brienne, that's not the same. Even the worst people in Westeros have a soft for somebody else. When Jaime first arrives to KL in books, he still is quite annoyed by Brienne's presence, even though he does cares about her. He calls Joffrey "squirt of seed", he barely felt anything about his dead, he wanted to marry Cersei (which probably would start more wars) and even having more children with her. In Show is different but the feeling is the same, he gets to KL and realise how powerless he is: no one recognises him, her sister/lover pushes him aside and blames him for leaving, Joffrey mocked him, Trant mocked him, his father wants him to give up the only thing he actually likes, even Brienne nags him about Sansa and on top of that, he can't do the one thing he enjoys besides Cersei: fight. He's POWERLESS. Rape -in fiction- is about power. Another King died under his watch, Cersei doesn't even let him be around Joffrey when he dies (once more, he pushes him). So, he takes it on Cersei who is now finally powerless as he is. He's broken in book and show and he's not the only character who cracks when broken. Loras killed two men when Renly died, I don't see him being chastised as much as Jaime has.

Very well spoken, I completely agree with you. Add to that Cersei begging him to kill Tyrion and him realizing how hateful she is, that's what makes him finally break.

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I had to look for it but she's repulsed by the stump in prior scenes ant it seemed like that was the point at which the scene took a worse turn

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