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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

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I think having an entire episode fully focused on a massive attack on Castle Black which comes from both sides simultaneously where a huge SFX and practical effects budget has been allocated which will include multiple one-on-one faceoffs (Jon/Styr, Thorne/Tormund, Giant/somebody, Ygritte/most likely little boy who's father she killed, Sam saving Gilly etc) is more than what any fan of that storyline could ask for.

They're delaying things in order for the attack to be on a much larger scale and provide a sustained focus whereby we get to see all the characters interact and have a dramatic climax (the arrival of Stannis) all in the same episode.

If you get over the "it didn't happen this way in the books" aspect, then you should really be looking forward to how this will play out. You're getting a "Blackwater" dedicated solely to Jon.

If it happens as you say the episode would be great yes, but that "Blackwater" dedicated to Jon could only happen in E09 if you see the names, and what are they going to do in 6 episodes exactly? Because they already set up that the wildlings are marching on the wall from the South so they will have two different attacks and if they divide it there is no way that with the changes they are doing, the scenes can be of such an impact as they were in the books. Also if they divide it then it has no sense to do what they are doing now.

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If it happens as you say the episode would be great yes, but that "Blackwater" dedicated to Jon could only happen in E09 if you see the names, and what are they going to do in 6 episodes exactly? Because they already set up that the wildlings are marching on the wall from the South so they will have two different attacks and if they divide it there is no way that with the changes they are doing, the scenes can be of such an impact as they were in the books. Also if they divide it then it has no sense to do what they are doing now.

It seems the last ep will be the attack on the Wall. They could stay very tight yet switch from north to south especially if they center the setting on the Wall or on Jon POV. But they could also vary POVs. Blackwater ep wasn't one long battle scene set on one place. It was broken up by scenes in Maegors Holdfast and other castle scenes, battle sites moved from big ships to landing craft in the water to landing to the city walls and castle wall top and bottom.

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^The penultimate ep. you mean. The one called "the Watchers on the Wall".

I wasn't sure if Ep 10 existed so if it does, yeah

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Just finished reading the entire thread, and rewatching the episode. I don't have anything new to really add, like others I agree that the rape was hard to watch, and I'm pissed that D&D are messing up Jamie's redemention arc.

Aside from that the only other nitpick I have is with the curious way Tywin says King Robert to Tommen, and not your father when discussing strength in his what makes a good king question to Tommen. Is this implying that Tommen even knows that Jamie is his father and not Robert? Or is it that Tywin carefully choose his words that way so as not to directly lie to the new king (in a sept no less)? I'd like to think it's the second and not the first.

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If it happens as you say the episode would be great yes, but that "Blackwater" dedicated to Jon could only happen in E09 if you see the names, and what are they going to do in 6 episodes exactly? Because they already set up that the wildlings are marching on the wall from the South so they will have two different attacks and if they divide it there is no way that with the changes they are doing, the scenes can be of such an impact as they were in the books. Also if they divide it then it has no sense to do what they are doing now.

Jon is taking a small group of NW to Craster's to take out the mutineers. E4 is him gathering the recruits to go and arguing with Thorne about it, E5 will be the actual attack with him fighting Karl himself. E6 he'll probably sit out while he heads back to CB offscreen and E7 and E8 will be about him convincing the NW at Castle Black how big the Wildling threat actually is as well as preparing the people there for the battle. During this time, they'll get word of Tormund/Ygritte's attack on Mole's Town (which takes place in E7 or E8) because we've seen a scene with he and Sam discussing Ygritte and whether she was someone who Jon could convince to turn on the Wildlings with Jon telling Sam that the ship has sailed on that possibility. At some point this season, Locke will show up at the Wall to interact with Jon but we don't really know in what capacity and if he's there for the final battle.

E9 will have the entire episode dedicated to the simultaneous attacks and will climax with Stannis' arrival to save the day.

In terms of the logic of the simultaneous attacks, the show has set up this strategy from the start with Mance telling Tormund to wait until Mance had his army in position and that the signal would be him lighting the biggest fire the North has ever seen. Logistically, it makes more sense for the Wildlings to hit them with their full force at the same time in order to provide the maximum amount of chaos. It was revealed in the last episode that the Wildlings in the south have orders to just generally wreak havoc in the nearby villages in order to try and draw out the NW from Castle Black and spread them thinner (something the NW aren't falling for). They're stalling until Mance gets his army into place. From the trailers, it looks like the Mole's Town raid is pretty brutal and we know that Gilly is there now too so she'll probably be put in danger during that attack.

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Just finished reading the entire thread, and rewatching the episode. I don't have anything new to really add, like others I agree that the rape was hard to watch, and I'm pissed that D&D are messing up Jamie's redemention arc.

Aside from that the only other nitpick I have is with the curious way Tywin says King Robert to Tommen, and not your father when discussing strength in his what makes a good king question to Tommen. Is this implying that Tommen even knows that Jamie is his father and not Robert? Or is it that Tywin carefully choose his words that way so as not to directly lie to the new king (in a sept no less)? I'd like to think it's the second and not the first.

Tywin is an intelligent man, I have no doubts that he knows King Robert is not Tommens father. However he's never going to say any such thing allowed because that will mean the end of the Lannisters reign on the throne. But I did love the scene between them and the obvious taking control of the situation before Cersei could make another mess. In the previous episode when Joffrey is dying Tywin makes a beeline for Tommen. He gets in first.

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Trailers appear to show Grenn guarding the gate when the giant rushes it. I'm guessing he'll meet Donal Noye's fate.


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^Yeah. Him and a few other not-long-for-this-world (but brave) chaps.

OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! I am not liking that. I don't like the idea of losing Grenn, I think he does a good job with the role. I'm going to be stubborn and hope that Grenn goes for some help reinforcing the gate.

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Without Donal Noye, who will take down the giant?

Show - Night's Watch will be doomed, no doubt.

Too bad no red shirts

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Does anyone else think that the slave shown before the credits is the Red Lamb? I noticed the same slave is pictured in the scenes for episode 4. It would be interesting if they introduced the Red Lamb earlier, especially given how many characters they are cutting.


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