[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion

[rmholt]

Book Pod's never really in any danger. Seems to totally miss Cersei and Tywin's radar.

IIRC they interviewed him and were not impressed

Edited April 21, 2014 by rmholt

[PhoenixFlame]

I do like that Jon's showing more pragmatic reasoning. Killing the traitors so they won't say something to Mance dovetails into Jon storing Wight body parts to see how they tick. Sure there's some personal vengeance as they murdered the Old Bear, but he raises a valid point.

I'll hold out judgement if Thorne's being a plain ol' douchenozzle or a Jerkass With a Point. Jon had way too thin skin (like most teenage boys) in S1 and let Thorne insult him where it hurt.

'Turning consensual' is rather rife with unfortunate implications. It's sorta established in the books Cersei's "Noooo, back off...aw shuddup and do me!" is a script between them unless Jaime's extremely delusional (which seems unlikely given Cersei thinks of Robert's rape but never Jaime's). Asha and Qarl are similar. I didn't see any "turning consensual" beyond Cersei not gouging his eyes out. How does it make Cersei more sympathetic from a narrative standpoint? It doesn't connect--if they were trying to characterize her as the victim of yet another peen, there was no reason to have her worrying about him earlier. I'm just really confused.

Edited April 21, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Ehhh close enough. Theres just not enough gifs out yet.

Emilia sounds a lot better when the language is made up.

No more english for Dany: subtitle all scenes going forward

[Jasta11]

It was pretty good. Less so than the two previous ones but those were by and large excellent so that's to be expected. Still, it didn,t seem like the writers are losing steam.

-Let's get the elephant in the room out of the way; I wasn't a fan of the Cercei-Jaime scene, but this wasn't a book deviation. The consensuality of the sex in the novels is not clear cut, at all. Cercei repeatedly says no and voices objections, only for Jaime to ignore her, and then she says it was folly. The show did all that, without the last part. This is NOT DnD changing things around people, sorry. Jaime is not a perfect angel post-maiming and he still semi-raped his sister.

-Loved the Tommen/Tywin scene and the looks the latter gave Cercei. ''You won't screw this one up'' all over his face, eh. Also nice bits of exposition without any sex (well, during it), which is always nice.

-I love Show!Shireen. Maybe it's because in the books she's unconsequential, but the show provides a good balance of her being headstrong while remaining likeable. Helping Davos with his eureka moment helps too.

-Stannis wasn't as bad as last episode, I liked him tearing the wooden ship to pieces as a counterpart to the leeches. It also stands to reason he would listen to Melissandre with Joffrey suddendly dropping dead. His threat to Davos is also consistent with his behavior in the books. My main beef is how his resolution to go to the Wall seems utterly forgotten.

-I hate book Littlefinger, and I hate show Littlefinger even more. Ye gods, where does this guy get that accent? This is beyound creepy. I wouldn't ever trust that guy even if he came with a glowing recommendation from God himself.

-Interesting scene between Tywin and Oberyn. I liked it a lot, apart from the contractual tits and asses.

-Wildlings being wildlings I also liked. Good of them to remind us they are raiders and pillagers, even those that aren't Thenns.

-Sam and Gilly being all sappy was a bit of a waste of time. One scene was enough.

-Sandor's food-themed antics countinue. The asshole moment was in-character, and they really needed to make them drift apart so I approve of the scene.

-Dany being badass Khalessi and yadda yadda yet again. The duel was over too quickly and lame, but I liked sending the broken chains in the city, it's a great political move. And my but Emilia Clarke is sexy when she starts yelling in Valyrian. More than usual, I mean.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

I do like that Jon's showing more pragmatic reasoning. Killing the traitors so they won't say something to Mance dovetails into Jon storing Wight body parts to see how they tick. Sure there's some personal vengeance as they murdered the Old Bear, but he raises a valid point.

I'll hold out judgement if Thorne's being a plain ol' douchenozzle or a Jerkass With a Point. Jon had way too thin skin (like most teenage boys) in S1 and let Thorne insult him where it hurt.

He can truly go either way at this point. Or even have a little of both. I really like show Thorne over the books. He doesn't like Jon but he does listen to him. Intriguing...

[lil_z]

I loved this episode. I didn't entirely understand the poor episodes ratings in the ratings Thread. I presume it's from non-book readers.

I viewed much of this episode as a cliff hanger for whats to come. We see many many setups leading toward episodes to come.

I always loved the involvement of the Iron bank. Something even Tywin seems to have let slip his concern. They talk about it, but haven't done anything, with the loss of Littlefinger and now Tyrion as Masters of Coin a very un happy bank now. It also makes sense that they would fund a usurper King to see their debts paid. And getting to see some action from Stannis FINALLY!

I am curious if they are going somewhere different with Sandor's story. Its been a year since the books, but I thought he was mortally wounded by now, could be wrong. Ayra, for as much as I adore seeing her path toward an Assassin, it was good to see she has some humanity still.

I loved seeing the setup for what I assume is Oberyns 'The Vipers' (which I hadn't heard that name used for him yet) fight with the Mountain.

Good to see some leadership in Jon, I loved him talking good sense and strategy.

Daenerys, I actually really loved this scene. Reminds of Indiana Jones 'Raiders of the Lost Ark,' were he just shoots the swordsman. I also loved the speech, and the tension between slaves and Masters. I know it's a stretch rationally, would people in slavery most likely all their lives rebel when it's not certain if She will be successful. Some would, some would wait, some would just try to run maybe. Still it all shows to me that Daenerys is becoming a Queen, a wise queen as Tyrion spoke with Tommen about, she is a wise although young ruler, and managed not to waste her army needlessly.

[NightStark]

Emilia sounds a lot better when the language is made up.

No more english for Dany: subtitle all scenes going forward

At least it lends her voice a bit of power, instead of the laid back, bored tones she normally speaks in.

Edited April 21, 2014 by NightStark

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

The Sept scene was by far the best in the episode. Grandfather Tywin and Tommen, that could have gone on for the hour. And, no, it wasn't rape. Cersei wanted it too -- that wasn't obvious?

Sansa's escape -- I thought this was well-done, concise and credible. Littlefinger is definitely getting creepy, but that's really who he is: a murdering, scheming worm. If anyone had doubts before, this scene ended them.

The Hound and Arya -- not so much this time. I get the need for character exposition, but the directors need to remember that some sense of history, people, and places should be woven into purely characterization scenes. There just isn't the screen time to waste.

Oberyn -- oh, he's so *saucy*! Really edgy television! Look, it just isn't very interesting seeing nudity in such a "look at me," completely self-aware way. And, I dunno, but it seems they're turning Oberyn into a weak character. I'm having trouble reconciling the orgy guy with one of the most well-trained warriors in the entire continent. Oberyn just seems completely unserious. (My wife the unsullied thinks Oberyn poisoned Joffrey -- she can't imagine him fighting The Mountain, or anyone else.) Also, Tywin just walking in on the Prince of Dorne's bedchambers? No way, not unless Oberyn was going to be arrested then and there -- his bodyguards wouldn't have permitted it without a fight anyway.

Stannis and Davos -- are we supposed to be interested in seeing Stannis succeed, or not? His character has been turned into a completely unsympathetic mystic & murderer, for no apparent end. And, is the Iron Bank stuff way ahead of itself?

Dany -- oh man, was she standing to close to Daario and the champion??? It seemed like she was right behind him! I think the High Valeryan is being done well and Emma is believable with it. I actually paused the TiVo to see if the words were being dubbed. The catapults with chains in them was a good touch but this was one scene where I thought the CGI was a little off.

Sam and Gilly -- again, the character exposition is fine, but we're not learning anything.

Thenn raid & Castle Black -- the raid was overdone. Overly cruel for viewing, but also since we already know that the Thenns are being portrayed as cannibals, what was the point in the duplicative scene? Castle Black was well-done, giving us a good idea of the future power-struggles there. (My wife raised the question of whether somehow John was going to be put in charge.)

Overall, the weakest episode of the season, but not a terrible episode. I think when the show uses every moment to tell the story, and not waste screen time for shock! value, it works best.

Edited April 21, 2014 by hedgeknight001

[Florina Laufeyson]

Emilia sounds a lot better when the language is made up.

No more english for Dany: subtitle all scenes going forward

Right? She has to scream it too.

He can truly go either way at this point. Or even have a little of both. I really like show Thorne over the books. He doesn't like Jon but he does listen to him. Intriguing...

I just hope if they make Thorne cooler like this, he doesnt get killed during the Battle, cuz that would be retarded.

[Good Guy Garlan]

You know, it would be kinda wiggy if it happened in Bran's arc too.

Another almost-reunion between brothers? Man, my poor heart wouldn't take it :frown5:

[Kaguya]

Wtf! Why has HBO changed the Jamie/Cersei scene to a rape scene?

[PhoenixFlame]

Right? She has to scream it too.

I just hope if they make Thorne cooler like this, he doesnt get killed during the Battle, cuz that would be retarded.

Or he goes down like a boss, fighting a giant and four snow bears.

The Sept scene was by far the best in the episode. Grandfather Tywin and Tommen, that could have gone on for the hour. And, no, it wasn't rape. Cersei wanted it too -- that wasn't obvious?

Agree with the Tommen part, but please, explain the second? I'm not being jerk I'm just curious what made you think she wanted it?

I had no problem with whores being naked in a whorehouse, in the middle of a job. Oberyn and Ellaria are bantering while treating them respectfully and not spouting so much exposition there's a need for an on-call fluffer. Teehee, Olyvar asked an honest question and Oberyn gave an honest answer. I didn't think the books gave much indication he was a savage warrior besides a mention of joining up with some mercenaries, until he ripped the Mountain a new one.

Edited April 21, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

Tywin-Tommen scene made the episode.

[Madfunkymonkey]

Matt Stone and Trey Parker must have loved this episode because there really was a floppy wiener in it.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Right? She has to scream it too.

I just hope if they make Thorne cooler like this, he doesnt get killed during the Battle, cuz that would be retarded.

Oh, and you brought it up in the NO SPOILER positive nitpick thread, but I'm replying here cuz it's spoilery:

Isn't it funny how Jon Snow clearly and logically vocalizes his plans and intentions and the why of what he wants to do in a way that other people [Thorne] can understand and respect and even agree with? This is like, the opposite of how he handles business in ADWD and part of what gets him a belly full of knives :)

[Darth Pipes]

Forgot to mention, we finally hear Sam the Slayer! Makes sense that Ser Alliser would call him that and that it would be used as a mocking nickname.

[Kaguya]

I still think Tommen still should have the same actor, especially for next season. I picture the little actor being scared of those certain scenes over the one we have now.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

Agree with the Tommen part, but please, explain the second? I'm not being jerk I'm just curious what made you think she wanted it?

She was kissing him back, wasn't she? That's the way I recall the scene. That by definition means consent.

True, it was forceful, or perhaps *frantic* might be a better term.

[PhoenixFlame]

I liked Tommen because he was such a contrast to Joffers. He's honest with his grandpa, not getting defensive he doesn't know something. It reminded be of that scene in Best Served Cold where Cosca's hanging out with a Duke's heir. He's heard the son is a total pussy, but thinks to himself how the young man seems thoughtful and respectful instead a reckless milksop. I don't think Tywin was just flattering him when he said "you have the right temperament for it." Maybe he was solely meaning "you're my little bitch" but it didn't seem like veiled condescension.

Balances out the thought-train of "zomg Joffrey was a psycho 'cause he was inbred. Khaleesi is cool though!" ... Khaleesi has like 400 years of inbreeding on Joffrey...

She was kissing him back, wasn't she? That's the way I recall the scene. That by definition means consent.

True, it was forceful, or perhaps *frantic* might be a better term.

Erm at first when they were still standing, then she pushed him away. She was shoving his mouth away as he dragged her to the ground though, and yelping as he moved. I have nothing against rough sex but it didn't look consensual to me.

Edited April 21, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[Florina Laufeyson]

Another almost-reunion between brothers? Man, my poor heart wouldn't take it :frown5:

Bran is almost out of material until WoW shit. Seriously. They need to pad him out a little bit and throwing in an extra plot line wouldnt hurt too much.

Or he goes down like a boss, fighting a giant and four snow bears.

Id be ok with that.

Oh, and you brought it up in the NO SPOILER positive nitpick thread, but I'm replying here cuz it's spoilery:

Isn't it funny how Jon Snow clearly and logically vocalizes his plans and intentions and the why of what he wants to do in a way that other people [Thorne] can understand and respect and even agree with? This is like, the opposite of how he handles business in ADWD and part of what gets him a belly full of knives :)

Ehh part of what gets Jon a belly full of knives is that hes voicing things that have little to do with the Watch itself. Have you forgotten that Bowen Marsh is a scum? :P