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[Book Spoilers] EP403 Discussion


Ran
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I'm going to be mad if they just skip the trial and go straight to the trial by combat. First of all the trial is pretty pivotal with Shae's betrayal of Tyrion. Second, I thought it was very dramatic having Oberyn talk with Tyrion and then reveal that he won't help him as his judge, but as his champion. That was a huge fist pump moment for me when I read ASOS. All the impact of that scene will be lost if the idea is already brought up beforehand.

They don't skip it.

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Not sure if this was brought before but Tywin said that Aerys I was killed by his brother. It is not clear how he died and was succeeded by Maekar. Rhaegel had sons of his own and he was the heir of Aerys. There are some ideas about the tension between Bloodraven and Maekar in D&E novellas. A person proposed that Maekar would ill kill Rhaegel just like he killed Baelor which Egg strongly objected.


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Not sure if this was brought before but Tywin said that Aerys I was killed by his brother. It is not clear how he died and was succeeded by Maekar. Rhaegel had sons of his own and he was the heir of Aerys. There are some ideas about the tension between Bloodraven and Maekar in D&E novellas. A person proposed that Maekar would ill kill Rhaegel just like he killed Baelor which Egg strongly objected.

He said Orys

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It jars the show-only people worst, and I can see it causing a divide.

Without giving too much away if you do want to read, the book counterpart of that scene was tumultuous, forceful, (still) incestous and with a touch of necro now, but definitely not rape.

Perhaps the show could have made a subtle change in the scene to make this more clear.

Still ... Lannisters + sex = squick. It is known.

Yes, I plan to start reading the books soon...

But I have read that scene, as it appeared in an article, and althought it still was a little forceful, it was much less violent, and it showed that she wanted it. I dont know, in the show it wasn't like that. And the context of the scene made it even worse, with Jaime insulting her just before the act!

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So was anyone else getting the vibe that Tywin sanctioned the Joffrey hit besides me? Or is that silly?

Not at all silly this is plausible even from the books... I think Tywin knew Joffrey was Cersei and Jamie's offspring . Tywin pretty much told Cersei in the last series he may well yet do something about Joffrey.

Delicious to consider that Tywin and Grandma Tyrell conspired in the act. I think that Tywin despises Cersi more than he does Tyrion but he is such a (long term ) game player he is happy to bide his time .

Tywin gets to elimininate Joffrey AND take care of Tyrion. Tywin knows Tyrion is intelligent and capable of planning strategy hell Tyrion is raising an army from nothing in Dance with Dragons. Cersei is a

blunderbuss , Tyrion is a stealth bomber . Liked this episode v much . If that scene with Jamie and Cersei depicted a rape I am ok with that considering this series has given us murder , mutilation,

torture and other modes of savagery by the bucketload ... if people are truly distressed by this then go read Famous Five or something. Or read up on the War of Rose and The Anarchy from "actual"

mediaeval history. TV show Jaime ia still a character on a redemptive arc maybe his redemption will also result in his death. Just as the Stark family is seemingly annihilated at the moment it is plausible that

the Lannisterrs will be destroyed at the end of the saga GRRM is confecting ( but notTyrion ). Sweetly ironic, no? Reckon the last song of the last ep will be the Rains of Castamere.

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The Game of Thrones Wiki page says Aerys. But if he said Orys, then it is worse.

Yeah, one of the things I thought (and mentioned here but it went unnoticed) was that it might have been Aerys I who was being referred to. It's possible Charles Dance just chose a slightly odd pronunciation there. Shireen pronounced "Aegon" as "Eggon", instead of rhyming the "ae" with "Play" or "Sigh" like most book readers do, so maybe Aerys is pronounced "Erris" and Dance just rounded the vowel out a lot.

Aerys I is actually a good candidate for this because:

1) One of his brothers (Rhaegal) was "mad", although also "meek" so maybe not violent.

2) One of his brothers (Maekar) was known to be moody and sulky and already had a rep for killing another of his brothers (Baelor Breakspear)

And Aerys I was described as both "sickly" and "clever" in the Dunk & Egg stories, so it seems reasonable he'd be the sort of bookish king known for legal justice instead of, say, personal combat ability.

It doesn't actually seem all that likely that either Rhaegal or Maekar would actually have killed Aerys, but certainly it's the type of rumor that took hold often enough even if not true.

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The broadcast script says Orys. They made up some pre-Conquest king. And with 8000 years of reputed history, nothing says there might not have been a King Orys at some point.

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The broadcast script says Orys. They made up some pre-Conquest king. And with 8000 years of reputed history, nothing says there might not have been a King Orys at some point.

Then they chose a very alarming name :devil:

Many of us are dying to learn what happened to Aerys, Rhaegel, his sons and the tension between Bloodraven and Maekar. All the D&E novellas have some hints about these and I am not sure whether we can learn what really happened from a maester's account (in TWOIAF).

Edited by Paper Waver
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Then they chose a very alarming name :devil:

Many of us are dying to learn what happened to Aerys, Rhaegel, his sons and the tension between Bloodraven and Maekar. All the D&E novellas have some hints about these and I am not sure whether we can learn what really happened from a maester's account (in TWOIAF).

I almost think they chose a name that the pronunciation could be questionable on.

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Not sure if this has been already mentioned, but why is Missandei translating what the champion of Meereen says? Isn't he supposed to speak Valyrian? Dany seems to perfectly understand Valyrian.

To give the actress something to do.

Same with how Dany needlessly has all the supporting characters ask to champion for her.

Even though its painfully obvious that Barristan is THE logical choice. He will not lose to this Ghiscari. In the books Dany does not realize she has the greatest living Kingsguard with her. Fighting as her champion is what a Queensguard would do. Its his job. All barristan can do is fight really good. He'll be gone from Danys side for 10 seconds.

Also acting like Daario considers himself not important in Danys party was just to play the "low born" card and earn sympathy it pathetic and makes no sense. Jorah, in the show, is not a great general. The show made it very clear that it was Daario who planned the Battle of Yunkai unlike in the books. Hes also the only thing keeping the 2000 strong (thats 1/5th of Danys army BTW) loyal to her as he is their leader and brought them over to her side in the first place. Daario is much more indispensable to her if we follow the shows established logic. Why risk it at all when Barristan will kill this lesser man easily?

But no. Danys arc is just about teasing her fucking Daario now so lord forbid it be Barristan. I mean its not like HBO already spent four episodes emphasizing Daario was a badass fighter so highlighting this again was 100% unnecessary.

Also, goes without saying that they make him way too nice guy when he humbly says that he is not worthy and she can afford to lose him. Daario would never say that. Where is the bastard from the books who wants to talk Dany into skinning children and going red wedding on the slavers? Certainly not this nice guy. I highly suspect that they're doing what they are doing with Shae where they change the character to be really nice and idealized then randomly do a 180 when the story requires them to. Very much part of them white washing Danys character.

Edited by Tyrion1991
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First post here! Anyway, I was reading the opinions regarding the episode and I'm surprised nobody's even mentioned how badly they are handling the whole Jon Snow's arc. He gets injured running away and with barely enough time to recover Castle Black is attacked. So he is injured, shooting arrows from a tower, which means he won´t be able to fight so he'll be helpless in Ygritte´s death.



BUT NOOOOO they had to wait like half a season of wildlings just going around doing nothing, also Sam arrives to Castle Black with Gilly before the attack (why for?) and they had to send her to Moles town. The whole attack in the night, Jon proving his strength, Ygritte's death, everything, was simply butchered and now they want to send them back to the North again??!! WHY? And there is no budget excuse or anything like that because all they had to do was show the wildling attack on CB in the premiere (making it much stronger).



Probably this is as bad a deviation from the book as is Jaime raping Cersei, which is a huge deviation in itself.


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But no. Danys arc is just about teasing her fucking Daario now so lord forbid it be Barristan. I mean its not like HBO already spent four episodes emphasizing Daario was a badass fighter so highlighting this again was 100% unnecessary.

While Dany's champions were making a piss contest to face the champion of Meereen, I expected Daario to take this contest literally and say "Me member is twice the size of his and I can piss thrice the distance." I think Dany would like it.

Edited by Paper Waver
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Not sure if this has been already mentioned, but why is Missandei translating what the champion of Meereen says? Isn't he supposed to speak Valyrian? Dany seems to perfectly understand Valyrian.

I see the champion might speak High Valyrian. Or the translation might be from Low Valyrian which is influenced by Ghiscari and different from High Valyrian - perhaps better understood by her intended audience who call her by an Old Ghiscari title?

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Ghiscari

Edited by rmholt
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First post here! Anyway, I was reading the opinions regarding the episode and I'm surprised nobody's even mentioned how badly they are handling the whole Jon Snow's arc. He gets injured running away and with barely enough time to recover Castle Black is attacked. So he is injured, shooting arrows from a tower, which means he won´t be able to fight so he'll be helpless in Ygritte´s death.

BUT NOOOOO they had to wait like half a season of wildlings just going around doing nothing, also Sam arrives to Castle Black with Gilly before the attack (why for?) and they had to send her to Moles town. The whole attack in the night, Jon proving his strength, Ygritte's death, everything, was simply butchered and now they want to send them back to the North again??!! WHY? And there is no budget excuse or anything like that because all they had to do was show the wildling attack on CB in the premiere (making it much stronger).

.

I think it's too soon to tell.

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I think having an entire episode fully focused on a massive attack on Castle Black which comes from both sides simultaneously where a huge SFX and practical effects budget has been allocated which will include multiple one-on-one faceoffs (Jon/Styr, Thorne/Tormund, Giant/somebody, Ygritte/most likely little boy who's father she killed, Sam saving Gilly etc) is more than what any fan of that storyline could ask for.



They're delaying things in order for the attack to be on a much larger scale and provide a sustained focus whereby we get to see all the characters interact and have a dramatic climax (the arrival of Stannis) all in the same episode.



If you get over the "it didn't happen this way in the books" aspect, then you should really be looking forward to how this will play out. You're getting a "Blackwater" dedicated solely to Jon.


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While Dany's champions were making a piss contest to face the champion of Meereen, I expected Daario to take this contest literally and say "Me member is twice the size of his and I can piss thrice the distance." I think Dany would like it.

I frankly don't get HBO or D&D logic. They must know that book readers despise Daario and Danys relationship with him is horribly maligned. To make that the focus of two/three seasons of her story is pretty silly since hes only the focus of attention for one book. Even stranger since, apparently one of the Ds is meant to be a Jorah fan. If GRRM had not wrote all the stuff in ASOS with Jorah they would never have considered casting Iain Glen or mentioning that he loves Dany. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say that Iain Glen was cast with the scene where Jorah kisses Dany in mind. Yet their actions have bordered on malicious in terms of adapting the characters story from ASOS. IMO you're better off killing a character off if you're not interested in adapting their story.

It would be so stupid and wrong if we end up having Jorah get more to say and do when hes with Tyrion next season than in this one.

Daario will be around for many seasons. Next one will focus exclusively on the Hidzhar Quentyn conflicts of the heart with Dany. They have plenty of time to build his character and relationship with Dany; even if the Battle of Meereen comes in season 5. But seasons 3 and 4 were devoted so heavily towards introducing and selling Daario to us.

Jorah the random extra being exiled will fall flat.

Hell it would be cringe worthy if Jorahs absence is more noted in season 5 than he was when he was with her.

Edited by Tyrion1991
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