JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 You know, it would have been kind of funny if Joffrey's body had fallen down on top of Jaime and Cersei. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Pipes Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The drying up of critical awards recalls how HBO originally was going to ax the show after the first pilot they shot. Tim Van Patten of The Sopranos re-directed it but he has not, unsurprisingly, returned to the show since. It solidifies to me that Benioff & Weiss, on their own, are just not very good at this. As I said, when they let Jaime's scenes play out like they did in the books, it's been great. Think his confession scene with Brienne. But when they go into business for themselves, you get Jaime murdering his cousin and this glorified rape scene. It's stuff like this that gets me very worried when the show eventually overtakes the books. I don't trust D and D with doing mostly original stuff based on whatever outline GRRM gave them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belisarius09 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I wonder how things will eventually play out for Dany with what is to come. Though the one character they will never "knock down a peg" is D and D's Saint Tyrion. They've managed to strip him of every single shade of gray in his very soul. He can still come across as gray if he does his deeds in the tower of the hand in a few episodes. There's still a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouseHarrison Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Book version clearly wasn't rape btw “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined. Yeah.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Pipes Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I hope so. Peter Dinklage is more than capable of pulling it off. He still is doing amazing work playing a character who has become so sanitized that his every action is predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladywhiskers Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 They just ruined the show. It's one thing to have Drogo be rapey. It's his culture and he doesn't know yet that he might love this woman. But it's completely out of character for Jaime to rape Cersei, and it's completely unnecessary, too. He doesn't care that "it's not right." That's cool. But he HAS to care if she says no, or he's just a rapist molesting his sister. The whole moral ambiguity about the Lannister twins was that their love for one another was real and mutual and non-coercive, and therefore moral judgements on it had to be just about the infidelity, and the incest itself. Now he's just a guy who abuses his sister, and there's no ambiguity left. Nice job, idiots. I get that a lot of men don't understand what rape is, and that they don't understand that if she's yelling no, that means no, and that they don't get that women really don't change their minds halfway through, either. So? Have a woman direct the scene, if you can't figure out the difference between passionate sex and rape. Those POOR actors! One minute they're in the hottest show on HBO, and the next, they're in a turkey even their biggest fans don't reallly like, all because of one nit-witted director. Why couldn't they just do what it says in the books? It's uncomfortable enough, with the corpse there. What were they thinking? Why did they have to make it rape? Whose real-life relationship were they copying, that they thought would be so much better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 She clearly said no repeatedly. What she says and what she does can be two different things. As I noted up-thread, the director indicates that the intention of the scene at the end was that it was consensual, and that's how it was rehearsed and choreographed. And as one can come to that conclusion just from watching carefully, I suppose it works, more or less, though of course it raises questions about how various changes they've made to the character has left her with less agency than she had in the novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamSongs Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I guess it makes a little more sense after reading this. Yes, its an awkward scene. I think they could have done better. SPOILER ALERT If you haven't read the books, you may not want to see this. http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/Breaker_of_Chains/Book_Spoilers/#Analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I can see the argument being made that the scene somewhat tarnishes Cersei's character because it changes the dynamics of her relationship with her brother, but this idea that it ruins Jaime because it serves as some kind of moral event horizon is quite simply preposterous. If there was ever such a moment, it was when he flung an innocent child off a tower. There is nowhere lower to sink to; Jaime is already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowy Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If what y'all are saying is true, it bothers me more that they are giving Cersei something resemblng sexual scruples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambled Aegon Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 if she's yelling no, that means no Quoting this just because it really bears repeating. Some of the stuff I'm seeing people post online -- not necessarily or exclusively in this thread or board, but in general -- is illustrative of a lot of huge issues I have with society in general and is making me very, very mad.. so I need to just back off the message boards for a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I can appreciate that the director had a specific intention for how the the scene should be appreciated but a quick perusal of Twitter and the multitude of episode recaps are demonstration enough that he utterly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen H'Ghar Is The Doctor Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 This is a complete screw up on the part of the show writers. They played the scene between Jaime and Cersei out to be a rape to gain more sympathy for Cersei as a character. This is totally going against the books and if they want to claim they didn't try to portray it that way it's not that hard. Just insert these lines from the book“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.- A Storm of Swords, Jaime VII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamSongs Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I agree Scrambled. I almost feel like I don't care to watch anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asha's Suckling Babe Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Book version clearly wasn't rape btw Yeah....Thank you for the quote! Changing 'do it' into 'stop it' definitely changes consensual sex scene into rape scene. No question there. And if the directors wanted it to seem consensual, why change this!!! But it's completely out of character for Jaime to rape Cersei, and it's completely unnecessary, too. He doesn't care that "it's not right." That's cool. But he HAS to care if she says no, or he's just a rapist molesting his sister. The whole moral ambiguity about the Lannister twins was that their love for one another was real and mutual and non-coercive, and therefore moral judgements on it had to be just about the infidelity, and the incest itself. Now he's just a guy who abuses his sister, and there's no ambiguity left.I could not agree with you more, his appreciation and love for his sister, and his faithfulness were his only redeeming qualities before his 'redemption' arc. GRRM writes such wonderful, grey characters but the show either whitewashes or blackwashes all of them. ETA:Next season Tyrion will help sex slaves and Jaime will rape Pretty Pia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 One Tumblr gif summary of the scene that amused me:http://capleesi.tumblr.com/post/83374224838/how-d-d-deal-with-book-canon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 What she says and what she does can be two different things.I've never been so disappointed in the board and its leadership, insofar as you, Ran, are the representative of it.you have a woman saying no, saying this is wrong, but because her hand is clutching at the man, that means yes? I can certainly understand a defense of the scene as a poor writing/editing decision and poor cutting of the scene, rather than a deliberate decision to make Jaime a rapist, but to try to convince all the people who heard a person saying no, and believing that no mean no, that, oh but her body is saying yes if you look really closely, that is disappointing and not what I expected here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The director thinks it was consensual by the end? That's genuinely disturbing. She's struggling beneath him and saying, "No." That's the only word that matters. Do we have to go over this? No means no, for Pete's sake. As if it's alright to force yourself on women because it might become consensual by the end. Was this guy raised in Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensleeves Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 The show has issues with the portrayal of women and violence towards them. HBO desperately needs to get someone in there to keep them in check. Jaime raped Cersei WTF?!? I can't get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Pipes Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Jaime essentially treated Cersei the way Robert did and that's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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