Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[danm_999]

What makes it consensual was that she clearly wanted him. She obviously just didn't want to be caught in the act.

We go back to the pretty basic point; it's still rape if you force someone to have sex, even if they'd have sex with you in different circumstances.

[The Human Abstract]

The book scene was rape, and so was the show scene. As soon as she said "no" in the book, and Jaime continued, it was rape.

That's nonsense.

I'm sure this comes from the good-hearted "no means no" rape awareness campaign we were all subjected to as first year college students. But it's crap. If my wife fondles me and I see "No. I'm making dinner" and she persists more forcibly and then I get turned on and give in I was not raped. Sorry.

[lezboyd]

Rape is worse than fucking your sister. The point however is that Jaime was on an upswing he's supposed to be redeeming himself inch by inch. Rape now sets him back again for no reason.

My thoughts exactly. I thought we would be well into the redemption arc for Jaime at this point in the series. So why set that back by showing this form of douchery?

[KalibakCruel]

My thoughts exactly. I thought we would be well into the redemption arc for Jaime at this point in the series. So why set that back by showing this form of douchery?

Yeah I'm not sure I see the need to do this. Jaime was becoming a character with flaws, but who was trying to do better. It's pretty fundamental to his character.

[Faint]

Before this thread gets locked, it might be of passing interest to know that the director himself categorizes the scene as rape.

I've quoted the relevant passages for those too lazy to read the whole interview:

It was directorial crack to do that scene. It was one of my favorite scenes I've ever shot. It's almost like a build from Ordinary People meets a Hitchcock movie, because you're sitting here going "this is so dysfunctional and bizarre." She's a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go "he's kidnapping her only boy," because she's not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like you read the scene and go "Wait, who's directing this?"

(...)

I'm never that excited about going to film forced sex. But the whole thing for me was about dead Joffrey lying there, watching the whole thing. (Showrunners) David (Benioff) and Dan (Weiss) loved that, and I was like, I wanted to make sure I had Jack in there as much as I could. Of course Lena and Nickola laughed every time I would say "You grab her by the hair, and Jack is right there," or "you come around this way and Jack is right there."

If that does not settle the issue, then nothing will.

[danm_999]

In the book, she said 'no' because she was worried they'd get caught, but then she goes on to literally tell him several times "do me, do me now." That can't be misinterpreted.

But yes, in the show, it's definitely rape.

No she doesn't. Go re-read the scene.

She tells him no beforehand, she pleads and begs with him not to do it, she tries resisting him physically, then when she sees there's no way to stop it, she tells him to hurry and be quick about it.

Then, when it's over, she immediatly tells him he shouldn't have done that.

It's rape.

[The Human Abstract]

No she doesn't. Go re-read the scene.

She tells him no beforehand, she pleads and begs with him not to do it, she tries resisting him physically, then when she sees there's no way to stop it, she tells him to hurry and be quick about it.

Then, when it's over, she immediatly tells him he shouldn't have done that.

It's rape.

I think you need to re-read the scene. He's really horny. She has qualms. She gets turned on by his horniness. They have sex. That's the scene.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Before this thread gets locked, it might be of passing interest to know that the director himself categorizes the scene as rape.

I've quoted the relevant passages for those too lazy to read the whole interview:

If that does not settle the issue, then nothing will.

My morbid sense of humor is laughing maniacally at "...and Jack is right there."

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

I came to this forum expecting outrage among fans at the gratuitous butchery of one of the story's greatest characters. What I didn't expect to encounter was justification for why ripping a woman's clothes off, shoving her to the floor, and forcibly penetrating her body while she says "no" and struggles against him isn't rape. I'm shocked. I guess the reaction to this scene is smoking out the creeps everywhere.

HBO is already spinning it as "controversial." I can't decide what's worse - them having a major protagonist rape his sister - in total violation of the consent which makes their relationship morally ambiguous and his own personal code - or them denying that it's rape.

D&D claim to be fans, but actions speak louder than words. They ruthlessly betray the source material in ways which have nothing to do with adapting/condensing a story from one medium to another. Up until now, it's been mostly just bad storytelling - i.e. the Talisa fiasco, confusion over what happened at Winterfell (I have Unsullied in my family who still don't understand who burned it) - but this is an atrocity against a character. Now Stannis has company.

[The God of Death]

My thoughts exactly. I thought we would be well into the redemption arc for Jaime at this point in the series. So why set that back by showing this form of douchery?

A "redemption arc" is kind of cheesy in my opinion if it only goes one way.

David and Dan are embracing Jaime's complexity, as someone with both menacing and heroic qualities.

Not saying that the book version isn't great.

But putting the "books vs. show" debate out of it, I absolutely understand what they're doing with Jaime's character.

[jaimecersei]

“She’s a wreck. Tywin is really going on about this historical stuff, and you slowly start to go “he’s kidnapping her only boy,” because she’s not going to have him anymore. And then he succeeds, and then Jaime comes in and he rapes her. That was like – you read the scene and go “Wait, who’s directing this?””

Alex Graves confirmed its a rape

[danm_999]

I think you need to re-read the scene. He's really horny. She has qualms. She gets turned on by his horniness. They have sex. That's the scene.

It's not me who needs to do that. This is a straight up rape.

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons . . .”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,”

Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this . . .”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight.

She doesn't want to have sex. She tells him no. She tells him they can't do it there. She tries to resist him physically. When she realises she can't stop him, she tries to get it over with quickly.

Then she tells him immediatly afterwards he shouldn't have.

It's a textbook rape. All you're doing now is spouting some classic rape defences like "she wanted it".

[Florina Laufeyson]

A "redemption arc" is kind of cheesy in my opinion if it only goes one way.

David and Dan are embracing Jaime's complexity, as someone with both menacing and heroic qualities.

Not saying that the book version isn't great.

But putting the "books vs. show" debate out of it, I absolutely understand what they're doing with Jaime's character.

Mmhmm. This is my opinion on the subject. The whole scene regardless of book or show, is hella uncomfortable to begin with. Its also showing complexity for Cersei's character. That she still has a blind spot in the form of Jaime, but shes going to fight against that now. The tears of the fandom are delicious.

[The Human Abstract]

It's not me who needs to do that. This is a straight up rape.

She doesn't want to have sex. She tells him no. She tells him they can't do it there. She tries to resist him physically. When she realises she can't stop him, she tries to get it over with quickly.

I can understand that many arguments come down to a disagreement of terms. In this case, you might be arguing that any resistance during foreplay is treading dangerous territory when it comes to consent.

But the bolded part shows you did not understand the text.

She is very obviously sexually excited in the text and there is no justification for your argument that she realizes she can't stop him and helplessly just tries to get it over with.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

GRRM writes "complexity" by putting characters in tough circumstances and forcing them to make challenging choices. Some good, some bad, some that are ambiguous.

This isn't "complexity," it's just controversy. There's nothing "complex" about rape. It's a wicked, violent, degrading act, and something Jaime would never do to Cersei, whom he loves deeply. Jaime already has plenty of "complexity" without HBO making him rape his sister.

[lezboyd]

This was poorly directed then and regardless it would still be rape since she didn't give consent when he stuck it in.

I agree. Every scene in this episode felt disjointed.

[The Human Abstract]

GRRM writes "complexity" by putting characters in tough circumstances and forcing them to make challenging choices. Some good, some bad, some that are ambiguous.

This isn't "complexity," it's just controversy. There's nothing "complex" about rape. It's a wicked, violent, degrading act, and something Jaime would never do to Cersei, whom he loves deeply. Jaime already has plenty of "complexity" without HBO making him rape his sister.

Pretty much agree.

[The God of Death]

GRRM writes "complexity" by putting characters in tough circumstances and forcing them to make challenging choices. Some good, some bad, some that are ambiguous.

This isn't "complexity," it's just controversy. There's nothing "complex" about rape. It's a wicked, violent, degrading act, and something Jaime would never do to Cersei, whom he loves deeply. Jaime already has plenty of "complexity" without HBO making him rape his sister.

LOL.

Is there anything "complex" about defenestration?

Defenestration is bad. Rape is bad.

But that doesn't mean that complex people don't do both good and bad things.

[Faint]

Yes, how dare HBO impinge the honor of Jaime Lannister, that great warrior virtue! He might fling innocent children off towers and catapult newborns into castle walls, but he would never rape Cersei!

[danm_999]

I can understand that many arguments come down to a disagreement of terms. In this case, you might be arguing that any resistance during foreplay is treading dangerous territory when it comes to consent.

If someone is begging me not to, and physically resisting me at the same time, if I proceed to try and have sex with them, that's called rape.

But the bolded part shows you did not understand the text.

She is very obviously sexually excited in the text and there is no justification for your argument that she realizes she can't stop him and helplessly just tries to get it over with.

Of course there is. You think she's telling him to be quick and hurry up because that's what sexually excites her?

In your experience do women generally enjoy their sex super quick, with no foreplay or anything? Do they generally enjoy it while they're having their period, which can be extremely painful anyway? Do they immediatly demand to be let up and tell you that you should not have done that after you've cum?

She's trying to get him off ASAP because she's in grief, because it's probably hurting her, and because they're in danger of being caught if Jaime's rape session goes on too long. Reading that scene any other way is borderline sociopathic to me.