Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[The Human Abstract]

Yes, how dare HBO impinge the honor of Jaime Lannister, that great warrior virtue! He might fling innocent children off towers and catapult newborns into castle walls, but he would never rape Cersei!

It's not just that it's out of character for Jaime, which it is. It's not just that is makes his character less faceted and interesting, which it does.

It's that it's a boring decision. It seems like yet another one geared more about the show's next shocking moment rather than it's potentially interesting characters. It adds nothing.

[The Kinkslayer]

LOL.

Is there anything "complex" about defenestration?

Defenestration is bad. Rape is bad.

But that doesn't mean that complex people don't do both good and bad things.

and Jaime was like: I'm not killing Tyrion m'kay, Kinslaying is bad, m'kay.

[metr0man]

It's not just that it's out of character for Jaime, which it is. It's not just that is makes his character less faceted and interesting, which it does.

It's that it's a boring decision. It seems like yet another one geared more about the show's next shocking moment rather than it's potentially interesting characters. It adds nothing.

Has it occurred to you that readers not getting the book scene actually is rape too is why they made the decision?

[The Human Abstract]

Of course there is. You think she's telling him to be quick and hurry up because that's what sexually excites her?

In your experience do women generally enjoy their sex super quick, with no foreplay or anything? Do they generally enjoy it while they're having their period, which can be extremely painful anyway? Do they immediatly demand to be let up and tell you that you should not have done that after you've cum?

She's trying to get him off ASAP because she's in grief, because it's probably hurting her, and because they're in danger of being caught if Jaime's rape session goes on too long. Reading that scene any other way is borderline sociopathic to me.

This whole narrative you've created here is laughable. You've tried desperately to re-write the exchange to seem like rape. It was over so quick, and she was on her period, and there was short foreplay!

And I love the backstory you've created involving Cersei's psychology, despite not a shred of evidence to support it in the actual text.

edit: Btw, loved the ad hominem argument that NOT reading that scene as rape makes me a sociopath. There are apparently scores of us here and all over the internet!

[Faint]

It's not just that it's out of character for Jaime, which it is. It's not just that is makes his character less faceted and interesting, which it does.

It's that it's a boring decision. It seems like yet another one geared more about the show's next shocking moment rather than it's potentially interesting characters. It adds nothing.

My honest reading of the situation is that it is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. The manner in which Lena Headey has portrayed Cersei from the very beginning of the series, whether on her own instincts or due to changes Benioff and Weiss decided to make to the character, or both, is a far bigger departure from the books and has had much greater consequences than a two minute scene from a forgettable episode is likely to.

[The Human Abstract]

My honest reading of the situation is that it is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. The manner in which Lena Headey has portrayed Cersei from the very beginning of the series, whether on her own instincts or due to changes Benioff and Weiss decided to make to the character, or both, is a far bigger departure from the books and has had much greater consequences than a two minute scene from a forgettable episode is likely to.

That's fair.

[lezboyd]

GRRM writes "complexity" by putting characters in tough circumstances and forcing them to make challenging choices. Some good, some bad, some that are ambiguous.

This isn't "complexity," it's just controversy. There's nothing "complex" about rape. It's a wicked, violent, degrading act, and something Jaime would never do to Cersei, whom he loves deeply. Jaime already has plenty of "complexity" without HBO making him rape his sister.

Agreed. There were plenty of ways to show "complexity" in Jaime's character without having him downright rape his sister in a Sept in front of her dead son. This was just done for controversy's sake.

[The God of Death]

It's not just that it's out of character for Jaime, which it is. It's not just that is makes his character less faceted and interesting, which it does.

It's that it's a boring decision. It seems like yet another one geared more about the show's next shocking moment rather than it's potentially interesting characters. It adds nothing.

I don't see it as being out of character for Jaime.

It would have been very out of character for me if Jaime had sex with someone other than Cersei.

But I don't see him taking Cersei by force in that moment as out of character. He was telling himself that Cersei is still his. In Jaime's mind it wasn't rape.

[The God of Death]

Agreed. There were plenty of ways to show "complexity" in Jaime's character without having him downright rape his sister in a Sept in front of her dead son. This was just done for controversy's sake.

I disagree.

I don't think David & Dan are even remotely close to as stupid as most book reading fans like to make them out to be.

They know that sex in front of the body of their dead son would have been "controversial" enough on its own.

Them writing the scene this way is clearly a choice on their part to remind us that Jaime isn't the pure hero.

[lezboyd]

It's not just that it's out of character for Jaime, which it is. It's not just that is makes his character less faceted and interesting, which it does.

It's that it's a boring decision. It seems like yet another one geared more about the show's next shocking moment rather than it's potentially interesting characters. It adds nothing.

Agreed.

[danm_999]

This whole narrative you've created here is laughable. You've tried desperately to re-write the exchange to seem like rape. It was over so quick, and she was on her period, and there was short foreplay!

I'm sorry, if you're arguing she really "wanted it" (which again, classic rape defence line), pretending Cersei actually likes it this way (after she's said no, physically resisted him, on the bier of her son's corpse, when she's on her period, in public where she can get caught), that's kind of delusion to the extreme. She didn't want to have sex. She said no. Left to her druthers, she and Jaime would not have had sex. She immediatly told him it was wrong of him to do that to her once it was done.

That's rape. I don't need to re-write a damn thing.

And I love the backstory you've created involving Cersei's psychology, despite not a shred of evidence to support it in the actual text.

Hell, we already know this is a tactic Cersei employed on Robert when he forced himself on her. She even tried sometimes to jerk/suck him off to avoid the sex. It's a pattern she's all too familiar with unfortunately.

[The Human Abstract]

I'm sorry, if you're arguing she really "wanted it" (which again, classic rape defence line), pretending Cersei actually likes it this way (after she's said no, physically resisted him, on the bier of her son's corpse, when she's on her period, in public where she can get caught), that's kind of delusion to the extreme. She didn't want to have sex. She said no. Left to her druthers, she and Jaime would not have had sex. She immediatly told him it was wrong of him to do that to her once it was done.

I am absolutely arguing that she really "wanted it". I think the story makes it clear.

As I said earlier, if your argument is: "aggressively initiating sex, being resisted, and trying again is rape" than -- while I don't necessarily agree -- I at least find that not a very tractable position. THAT particular argument could fill books.

But you said a bunch of things that were clearly not true. You said that Cersei was never turned on and only trying to get it over with as quickly as possible. You claimed that at no point in the exchange did she ever desire sex with Jaime or consent. The text very obviously contradicts these claims.

[Itchyscratch]

Not trying to be pedantic, but Cersei doesn't actually say the word 'no' in that scene. She says Not Here Please, she says This Isn't Right, she says Stop It, she says It's Not Right but for all those claiming that she said No repeatedly, you're wrong.

And who invented the word 'rapey'? Nobody over the age of 12 I'm betting.

[gvewolf243]

Now my Unsullied friends call Jaime a rapist. Well, he is kinslayer in the show also. While Tyrion is almost Ned Stark 2.0 . Good job, lol. :bang:

[The God of Death]

Now my Unsullied friends call Jaime a rapist. Well, he is kinslayer in the show also. While Tyrion is almost Ned Stark 2.0 . Good job, lol. :bang:

Just wait until Tyrion MURDERS the girl who on the show ACTUALLY LOVES HIM.

[Van West]

And then Cersei becomes the most sympathetic Lannister....somehow

[The Kinkslayer]

And then Cersei becomes the most sympathetic Lannister....somehow

Exactly, she's not even fucking moonboy, for all the unsullied know.

Now GRRM is going to get blamed for the eventual rape of Brienne in next week's episode 'Oathkeeper', after all Jaime knows she has no thapphireth

[The Human Abstract]

A nice article by AV Club writer reflecting on the show's decision to turn the rape button up about 5 levels and how it changes two key relationships.

http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-thrones-203499

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I bitch about what they do with Stannis, but fuck me, that was awful. I feel for you Jamie fans (well, I like though I wouldn't put him in my top ten).

[Van West]

Jaime fans and Stannis fans unite.