Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[ServantOnIce]

1. Drogo did not rape Dany on the show. I know that may go against many folks here but she knew it was her wedding night and what was expected of her. Just like Sansa and Tyrion when Sansa drunk wine and was getting ready to consummate her relationship with Lord Tyrion. Was Drogo rough? Yes, but that was his style that wasn't rape.

2. My Unsullied Co worker said to me, "What was up with Jaime raping Cersei?" Folks see it as rape. Cersei kept saying no, no, no while on the ground. It reminded me of when Robert would do the same to Cersei in the books.

Carry On.

[Lannes]

Way late to this party, but I'd like to thank D&D from all us book fans that have told the Unsullied that Jaime's arc of redemption is one of the more compelling arcs in the books.... :rolleyes:

[James Sucellus]

Way late to this party, but I'd like to thank D&D from all us book fans that have told the Unsullied that Jaime's arc of redemption is one of the more compelling arcs in the books.... :rolleyes:

Yeah, now the general public think we're full of shit, and find Cersei/Tywin more likeable.

Still not as bad as when I hyped my friends up for Stannis in S2.

[gash]

You fail to see how it would be out of character for a man who committed incest because he loved his sister, and threw a kid off a building because he loved his sister, to then violently sexually assault her whilst yelling that he doesn't care?

OK.

please tell me you're not trying to find excuses for him for child murder and incest.

[James Sucellus]

please tell me you're not trying to find excuses for him for child murder and incest.

They're not excuses, but his entire character motivations for ASOIAF, which should remain consistent and make sense, without him doing fucking dumb and out of character things like kinslaying and raping. I'd have been equally baffled if Tywin had raped Cersei, or if Joffrey had raped Podrick. A character being a 'baddie' (whatever), doesn't mean they can just do weird out of character shit.

[Le Cygne]

I'm pretty much ignoring all the nonsense about rape, but it doesn't matter if it's Westeros or New York City, rape is rape.

There are more protections in place now, so a rapist in Westeros has a better chance of getting away with it than in NYC, but that doesn't make it any less rape. Sansa did not consent to sex with Tyrion and was "obeying" under threat of force = rape (had he done more, as it was, he made her take off her clothes and groped her, that was sexual assault).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault

[Moët]

It almost sounds as if you're saying that I'm saying D&D are showing too much violence?

How would you get that from my question: "You mean not nearly as much as in the books?"

Perhaps I wasn't clear: Do you think there's more violence in the show than in the books?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think they'll pretend it never happened, going by the Alton thing (until the ghastly I murdered people to be with you line). The audience won't be able to forget so easily. Brienne is going to look foolish, she thinks he's not the man he was, and he's actually no better than before.

They always seem to come back to the broad plot points, although the characters are very different. Which is the hardest part, why, if they are different, would they do the same things (end up in the same place)?

I'd rather have an entirely different story but the same characterizations.

I do wish the scene had been done in a much more clear manner, but I suspect that D&D will expect the audience to grasp it when come next week Cersei will not act as if it was in any way a rape. Cersei will move on to using the idea of sex with her to get her either Sansa or Tyrion's head, Tommen away from Tywin, something. And, when the only thing Cersei has to say about the Sept (if she has anything to say at all, that is) is along the lines of.......they have to be more careful about what they do and where, D&D will just move on. They had their shocking scene, and well, will not want it to really MEAN all that much in the long run. Why they feel the need to tamper so much with material is beyond me.

The scene didn't look quite as bad on a rewatch, it was still........a difficult look for Cersei's pure acceptance. Why they couldn't include some of the 'do me, Jaime, yes, like that" dialogue is unfathomable. I rewatched to see if my first impression was correct, but honestly, my book knowledge did NOT help me see it as not 'rapey.' And David Benioff with his: Jaime forced himself comments only reinforced my rewatch conclusion.

Still, they will expect us and all viewers to just move along, they've had their shock for the week, I think. I'm pretty easy going with book changes, but this episode is a real sticking point. Being the easy going girl I am......I'll get over it, but D&D do not do much to help me with that.

[gash]

I'm pretty much ignoring all the nonsense about rape, but it doesn't matter if it's Westeros or New York City, rape is rape.

There are more protections in place now, so a rapist in Westeros has a better chance of getting away with it than in NYC, but that doesn't make it any less rape. Sansa did not consent to sex with Tyrion and was "obeying" under threat of force = rape.

tyrion actually not having sex with sansa means rape did not in fact occur.

[Moët]

Your logic here is basically "she didn't fight back so it wasn't rape."

But Cersei's actions do NOT happen in isolation of the dialogue. Cersei repeatedly telling Jamie to stop what he is doing is something that actually happened. Jamie ignoring what Cersei told him is something that actually happened. Jamie flat out stating that he didn't CARE what Cersei wanted is something that actually happened. It is completely reasonable to infer that Cersei is being taken against her will. I admit, there was a moment in the middle, when Jamie had taken them both to their knees and Cersei seems to kiss Jamie back, when I thought the situation was going to pivot in the direction of the book; if I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't have given Jamie even that much benefit of the doubt. And the scene ends with Cersei still telling Jamie to stop, and Jamie still ignoring her. And, to my eyes, at that point she was trying to move away from Jamie while he did the deed.

Frankly, if scene was supposed to read as "Cersei is reluctant at first but then consents," then the acting and the camera work completely failed to convey that message. How do I know? Because the vast majority of viewers are interpreting the scene as a rape.

Then the "vast majority" are completely ignoring Cersei kissing Jamie, and pulling him towards her, and participating consensually in the scene, because they want to be outraged about rape. Yes, rape is enraging, no argument.

It seems to me, that the "vast majority" are guilty of far greater character assassination on Cersei's part, than Jamie, since Cersei would indeed fight off any man she didn't want to have sex with, including Jamie - but she not only didn't, she actively pulled him towards her. But somehow that doesn't count just because she didn't verbally say, "yes"?

[Le Cygne]

Still, they will expect us and all viewers to just move along, they've had their shock for the week, I think. I'm pretty easy going with book changes, but this episode is a real sticking point. Being the easy going girl I am......I'll get over it, but D&D do not do much to help me with that.

The big question is, why do it that way. What did they accomplish by this. A lot of female viewers are already pretty turned off by a number of things in the way the story (which was pretty sensitive in the way it was presented in the books) has been adapted and presented.

Did this advance the story in some way that having Cersei say "Do me now" would not have done? If it didn't quite work, and it was absolutely necessary to bring Jaime back early (and I question the wisdom of this from an dramatic perspective, I think it sucked the drama out of this and other scenes) did they have to show the scene at all?

What was gained? I think nothing, and something was lost. I think they'll likely just carry on like nothing happened, meanwhile, this is pretty disturbing to have a character who has taken a stand repeatedly against rape in the narrative (and that's important) rape this woman who has meant so much to him. It seems like they don't weigh these things at all.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

This is exactly it.

I don't understand why we can't all agree on this...

The show intended to make the sex consensual by the end, but the execution in showing that was pure.

The execution is what is causing all this backlash.

It's different for show-only watchers. But as book readers, we should all just be able to agree that the execution of the scene was poor, and made it seem like non-consensual the whole way through even though this was not the intention.

If that was the intention, then why did David Benioff say that Jaime forced himself on her.....on the Inside the Episode segment that HBO aired OnDemand? Sometimes, I think they do this crap on purpose, just to be talked about, ya know? Bad publicity is still publicity.

Maybe the actors thought in the end it would look different, but I still wonder what D&D's intentions really were. It's generating talk that had GRRM issue a statement, even if just on his blog, errrrrrrrr...Not a Blog.

[The God of Death]

How would you get that from my question: "You mean not nearly as much as in the books?"

Perhaps I wasn't clear: Do you think there's more violence in the show than in the books?

You didn't read my original post properly.

I said no such statement. I was defending D&D, not criticizing them.

Just a total misread of my original post on your part.

[The God of Death]

If that was the intention, then why did David Benioff say that Jaime forced himself on her.....on the Inside the Episode segment that HBO aired OnDemand? Sometimes, I think they do this crap on purpose, just to be talked about, ya know? Bad publicity is still publicity.

Maybe the actors thought in the end it would look different, but I still wonder what D&D's intentions really were. It's generating talk that had GRRM issue a statement, even if just on his blog, errrrrrrrr...Not a Blog.

In the book, he also starts out by forcing himself upon her.

But in the book, it is quickly made clear that Cersei doesn't mind, that she actually wants it.

I fully believe this want the intention of D&D and Alex Graves as well... but whether it's the writing or the directing, the execution was botched, and the fact that Cersei is consenting by the end was not made clear to the audience at all.

So it really just comes down to a failure of execution in this particular scene.

[Turncloak_]

In the book, he also starts out by forcing himself upon her.

But in the book, it is quickly made clear that Cersei doesn't mind, that she actually wants it.

I fully believe this want the intention of D&D and Alex Graves as well... but whether it's the writing or the directing, the execution was botched, and the fact that Cersei is consenting by the end was not made clear to the audience at all.

So it really just comes down to a failure of execution in this particular scene.

This. What I would give to hear them admit that thy botched the scene. But instead we hear Alex Graves defend the scene and call it consensual

[Florina Laufeyson]

See heres where i have a problem.

I dont see this as character assassination, but i still think the scene is rape. Yet all the sudden i and others are getting accused of defending rape. Thats disgusting, fandom, stop that.

[Moët]

In the books Jaime and Cersei have consensual sex. The show's version is clearly rape.

There are a lot of people, even in this thread, who don't agree that "the show's version is clearly rape."

Gods, I've had makeup sex that was a whole lot worse than that, and certainly not "rape."

[Moët]

You didn't read my original post properly.

I said no such statement. I was defending D&D, not criticizing them.

Just a total misread of my original post on your part.

Then why would you ask what you asked when I clearly didn't say that, and then avoid both my questions?

But I'll ask again - do you think there's more violence in the show than the books?

[The God of Death]

Then why would you ask what you asked when I clearly didn't say that, and then avoid both my questions?

But I'll ask again - do you think there's more violence in the show than the books?

No, I do not.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The big question is, why do it that way. What did they accomplish by this. A lot of female viewers are already pretty turned off by a number of things in the way the story (which was pretty sensitive in the way it was presented in the books) has been adapted and presented.

Did this advance the story in some way that having Cersei say "Do me now" would not have done? If it didn't quite work, and it was absolutely necessary to bring Jaime back early (and I question the wisdom of this from an dramatic perspective, I think it sucked the drama out of this and other scenes) did they have to show the scene at all?

What was gained? I think nothing, and something was lost. I think they'll likely just carry on like nothing happened, meanwhile, this is pretty disturbing to have a character who has taken a stand repeatedly against rape in the narrative (and that's important) rape this woman who has meant so much to him. It seems like they don't weigh these things at all.

I wish I knew the WHY of it, why they think crap like this is a good idea. I hate to say it, but part of me thinks it's just a matter of sticking their tongues out at people. They can say EFF YOU to anyone, anyway they want. And, of course, I think they try and rewrite too much just because they are TRYING to prove they, too, can write. Well, I hate to break it to them, but their biggest boo-boos usually happen when they try and revamp something that was perfectly fine before they got their grubby little paws on it. I don't know why, but it seems they really don't care about women fans sometimes. I'm not one who carries on about that issue, but.....it's hard to see it any other way. :dunno:

I think part of them resents that it's someone else's material that has made them so successful, and well, they won't admit much in the way of their mistakes with the material. And, they do count on what I call Tv audience ADD, give us something big now and don't worry about the long term consequences. Next week, next episode, it will be clear, or forgotten, and tv audiences with attention deficit disorder will move on.