Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Zman1863]

Having watched the episode and the scene again, I can see that they were probably going for ambiguity and subtlety, but I think they botched the execution. The supposed subtlety of the scene simply does not come across for most viewers looking at it the first time.

You have to watch quite closely to pick out the signs of Cersei being a more willing participant than her words indicate. They are there, but you almost have to go through it frame by frame like a JFK conspiracy theorist analyzing the Zapruder film. If you have to do that to try to match what is on screen with what the director says he was trying to convey, I think the director missed the mark.

I also think Jaime's actions and motivations don't come through well. It has been suggested that Cersei stops the initial kiss to entice Jaime into agreeing to her proposition that Jaime kill Tyrion, and that Jaime percieves this and this motivates his "hateful woman" comment and the ensuing action. But I just don't see any sign of Cersei being conniving here. It looks more like she kisses Jaime in a moment of weakness and then pulls back knowing she has forgotten herself.

[Moët]

This. What I would give to hear them admit that thy botched the scene. But instead we hear Alex Graves defend the scene and call it consensual

I don't think they need to admit anything was botched, because there are clearly people who didn't have a problem with it. Perhaps they overestimated the observational skills of many in their audience.

I also think a lot of people are looking at this scene through a 21st Century Social Filter™. A man should never ever force himself on a women in today's society, even if it turns out to please his partner (as Ros said, "There's a lid for every pot.") ASOIAF is not today, nor is it Earth. Please don't misunderstand me, force ≠ rape. They are two different things, and while force does turn into rape a lot, it doesn't always, as is apparently clearer for a lot of people in the book (reading it), and not so much visually on the show (watching it.)

But layering our modern social standards onto a story that isn't only not modern, but doesn't even take place in our world, does a giant disservice to the story.

[The God of Death]

Then why would you ask what you asked when I clearly didn't say that, and then avoid both my questions?

But I'll ask again - do you think there's more violence in the show than the books?

This was my original quote...

---

"Of course a "misogynist society can be depicted in a lot of ways." The same statement can be made out any "type of society". That goes without saying.

Do D&D have to show as much sexual assault as they do?

Of course they do not.

However, it is a great error to not make the distinction between "the writers are depicting a misogynist society" and "the writers are misogynist".

A great and grievous error."

---

You then highlighted my statement "Do D&D have to show as much sexual assault as they do"... and you asked me if I think there is more violence on the show than there is in the books.

Clearly, you misunderstood what I was saying.

I was responding to a person who made the statement "There is more than one way to depict misogyny. D&D take the frat boy approach." This person was defending another commenter who said something along the lines of "The writers of this show are misogynists and they have disgraceful attitudes towards women". I was refuting them by saying there is a difference between writers being misogynist and writers depicting a misogynist society.

Does that clear things up, or do you still think I am criticizing D&D? (even though I am obviously defending them?)

[nara]

OK...I'm going to ask again. How can this be fixed?

Any suggestions?

Hastily filmed and added scene. (Maybe it could replace one of the random brothel scenes.)

Jaime is walking out of the throne room. Cersei comes out of the shadows and pulls him into a empty hallway

Cersei: Jaime, we have to be more careful. If I were to get with child, our father wouldn't think twice about sending me back to Casterly Rock...or worse.

Jaime: Then I will kill him.

Cersei: And become a kinslayer? Don't be daft. Lannisters are not kinslayers.

Jaime: (embarrassed) I guess I didn't mention an incident in Riverrun...

He goes on to describe killing that distant relation while in captivity and Cersei is so turned on that they have CLEARLY CONSENSUAL sex.

This would show that 1) Cersei did not see the episode as rape (even though it looked like it to us), 2) Cersei is no victim--she's crazy, and 3) Jaime would still kill people for her.

[Hagen of Tronje]

In the book, he also starts out by forcing himself upon her.

But in the book, it is quickly made clear that Cersei doesn't mind, that she actually wants it.

And I suppose Jaime knew this right from the start when he ripped her clothes off and spread her legs although she said no and started to hit him? But of course, someone as flawless as book Jaime would have stopped sooner or later before things get ugly.

[The God of Death]

And I suppose Jaime knew this right from the start when he ripped her clothes off and spread her legs although she said no and started to hit him? But of course, someone as flawless as book Jaime would have stopped sooner or later before things get ugly.

lol, is this being directed at me?

I am among the people who don't think that Jaime taking Cersei by force in that moment would be totally out of character for him.

However, I believe the reality of what happened with that scene is that it was intended to play out as more consensual by the end, but it just didn't come across as intended.

[Le Cygne]

I wish I knew the WHY of it, why they think crap like this is a good idea. I hate to say it, but part of me thinks it's just a matter of sticking their tongues out at people. They can say EFF YOU to anyone, anyway they want. And, of course, I think they try and rewrite too much just because they are TRYING to prove they, too, can write. Well, I hate to break it to them, but their biggest boo-boos usually happen when they try and revamp something that was perfectly fine before they got their grubby little paws on it. I don't know why, but it seems they really don't care about women fans sometimes. I'm not one who carries on about that issue, but.....it's hard to see it any other way. :dunno:

I think it's intentional, I think they know by now that female fans like certain characters and pairings and the reasons why, and if they don't know, all they have to do is ask GRRM, he certainly knows.

I think when it comes to men and women and romance/sex, the closer they stay to the books, the better. Make the necessary changes, but keep the spirit of it in place. Borrow liberally from the books. You can tell that he really sweated over the writing of those scenes, to get them just right. There's a delicate balance, and like he says, the butterfly effect, it's felt throughout the story.

You can tell that it was important for Cersei to say yes, and for Dany to say yes, because he added it. It's not there by accident. It's part of a broader characterization of a relationship between characters and stories. Try not to squash those butterflies in particular, since they just don't have a knack for it. But they just stomp on them, and I think like you say, they are sticking out their tongues at us.

It's their show, and they are going to do it their way. But so much is lost, these were some nice, subtle, beautiful stories we are not seeing, or seeing in the oddest of ways.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I'm kind of disturbed by the number of posts that claim this wasn't a 100percent rape. Either consent is given or it isn't. Someone cannot be "kind of" raped. Please understand that rape is not an issue that can be interpreted as grey. It's black and white. She may not have given consent initially, but later did give consent. It that case it is not rape. She may have given consent initially, but later said no. That would be rape. In this scene she explicitly sexually denied Jaime, but he forced himself on her. In no way did she later give verbal consent. It can be interpreted that she gave physical consent, but since physical consent is up to the interpretation of the aggressor, the implications of her consent are moot. It can be therefore assumed that Jaime forced himself upon her when she was unwilling to have sex with him which resulted in rape. A 100percent rape. Because there is no other kind.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

I don't think they need to admit anything was botched, because there are clearly people who didn't have a problem with it. Perhaps they overestimated the observational skills of many in their audience.

I also think a lot of people are looking at this scene through a 21st Century Social Filter™. A man should never ever force himself on a women in today's society, even if it turns out to please his partner (as Ros said, "There's a lid for every pot.") ASOIAF is not today, nor is it Earth. Please don't misunderstand me, force ≠ rape. They are two different things, and while force does turn into rape a lot, it doesn't always, as is apparently clearer for a lot of people in the book (reading it), and not so much visually on the show (watching it.)

But layering our modern social standards onto a story that isn't only not modern, but doesn't even take place in our world, does a giant disservice to the story.

Well said.

[Knight of Ashes]

This. What I would give to hear them admit that thy botched the scene. l

This. To anyone who's been asking how they can fix what happened, I think this is the best they could do.

[pantouflas]

There are a lot of people, even in this thread, who don't agree that "the show's version is clearly rape."

Gods, I've had makeup sex that was a whole lot worse than that, and certainly not "rape."

This was not makeup sex, it was breakup rape. See next week's trailer, and the fact they never have any more sex after that.

Also, please stop having sex 'that is a whole lot worse than that', especially if the girl is crying and saying no...

[FalseKnight]

How about we quote the entire scene, and not cherrypick bits so we get a good idea of what actually happened;

Sorry, but I cannot see how this wasn't rape.

Cersei did not want to have sex. She said no, she pleaded to him not to. She attempted to resist him physically.

When that failed, she didn't consent to the sex, she tried to speed up the sex. She knew at that point she couldn't stop him, and she just wanted it to be over, and to minimise the risk of them being caught.

If you ever doubt that fact, look at what she says once it's over. "This was folly". She didn't want to have the sex, before or after it occured.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think it's intentional, I think they know by now that female fans like certain characters and pairings and the reasons why, and if they don't know, all they have to do is ask GRRM, he certainly knows.

I think when it comes to men and women and romance/sex, the closer they stay to the books, the better. Make the necessary changes, but keep the spirit of it in place. Borrow liberally from the books. You can tell that he really sweated over the writing of those scenes, to get them just right. There's a delicate balance, and like he says, the butterfly effect, it's felt throughout the story.

You can tell that it was important for Cersei to say yes, and for Dany to say yes, because he added it. It's not there by accident. It's part of a broader characterization of a relationship between characters and stories. Try not to squash those butterflies in particular, since they just don't have a knack for it. But they just stomp on them, and I think like you say, they are sticking out their tongues at us.

It's their show, and they are going to do it their way. But so much is lost, these were some nice, subtle, beautiful stories we are not seeing, or seeing in the oddest of ways.

They've definately compromised the gift of a rapist's head to Pia. That and Jaime thinking of his brother wondering whatever happened to giving women flowers.

[Chebyshov]

Having watched the episode and the scene again, I can see that they were probably going for ambiguity and subtlety, but I think they botched the execution. The supposed subtlety of the scene simply does not come across for most viewers looking at it the first time.

You have to watch quite closely to pick out the signs of Cersei being a more willing participant than her words indicate. They are there, but you almost have to go through it frame by frame like a JFK conspiracy theorist analyzing the Zapruder film. If you have to do that to try to match what is on screen with what the director says he was trying to convey, I think the director missed the mark.

I also think Jaime's actions and motivations don't come through well. It has been suggested that Cersei stops the initial kiss to entice Jaime into agreeing to her proposition that Jaime kill Tyrion, and that Jaime percieves this and this motivates his "hateful woman" comment and the ensuing action. But I just don't see any sign of Cersei being conniving here. It looks more like she kisses Jaime in a moment of weakness and then pulls back knowing she has forgotten herself.

This perfectly sums up my feelings about it. I think it is a scene that will sit better in hindsight, but that is not a good quality for a scene to have.

[Valerius]

I'm kind of disturbed by the number of posts that claim this wasn't a 100percent rape. Either consent is given or it isn't. Someone cannot be "kind of" raped. Please understand that rape is not an issue that can be interpreted as grey. It's black and white. She may not have given consent initially, but later did give consent. It that case it is not rape. She may have given consent initially, but later said no. That would be rape. In this scene she explicitly sexually denied Jaime, but he forced himself on her. In no way did she later give verbal consent. It can be interpreted that she gave physical consent, but since physical consent is up to the interpretation of the aggressor, the implications of her consent are moot. It can be therefore assumed that Jaime forced himself upon her when she was unwilling to have sex with him which resulted in rape. A 100percent rape. Because there is no other kind.

Rape is ultimately about power and domination. While who wields power and who is dominant can be overt, at other times it can be more nuanced and ambiguous. Rape is thus NOT something that is necessarily black and white. Consent in the eye of modern Western law is a simple "Yes" or "No", but we are not using modern law here. Rape is a social category, with different ways in how it can be defined. The show (and the book) loves playing with that ambiguity and challenging false dicotomies.

[William Campbell]

Watched the scene again.

After Jaime goes to his knees with Cersei, and after saying "stop it" a few times, she definitely kisses him and touches his face. The next word she says is, "stop" but in a succumbing way.

I think the whole key to this scene is at the beginning when Cersei says, "Jaime, not here, please." She doesn't want sex "here," not I don't want sex with you.

The whole "it's not right" at the end isn't about not wanting sex, but not wanting to do it in a holy place with a dead son, and with the possibility of watchers nearby. The last frame shows her holding tight to the burial blanket or tapestry or whatever, which indicates sexual pleasure.

So, I vote no rape, just inappropriate creepy sex.

[Le Cygne]

Again, trying to ignore the foolishness, but sex without consent is rape. That's not any different in the books.

I was answering the guy above you, but holding tight to fabric doesn't = sexual pleasure, unless pleasure is indicated in the scene.

[FalseKnight]

Cercei kept saying no but she obviously wanted it otherwise why was she kissing him back so much? This wasn't rape, it just shows what a weird relationship they have, and after it just suffered a huge throttle... they're both in a very unstable state, especially Cercei that's why she was saying no all the time but on the other hand seeking his affection and comfort.

I think people just saw it as rape because it wasn't so well directed, and it all happened too quickly...

The victim blaming begins.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Rape is ultimately about power and domination. While power and dominance can be overt other times it can be more nuanced and ambiguous. Rape is thus NOT something that is necessarily black and white. The show (and the book) loves playing with that ambiguity and challenging false dicotomies.

Rape and rough sex are not the same thing. In one case consent is not given and in the other it is. If someone says "no" and does not later retract his/her denial, then consent is explicitly not given, in which case it is rape. I don't see how that's ambiguous. You could argue that in this case it was a competition for dominance between the two, who obviously have a pretty complex relationship. However Cersei made it clear in the show that this was not a competition in which she was willing to participate, at least in this context and Jaime continued in his actions. That makes it rape. No ambiguity.

[gogorath]

Also the attempted murder on Bran can be justified.

This is spectacular.