Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Moët]

Watched the scene again.

After Jaime goes to his knees with Cersei, and after saying "stop it" a few times, she definitely kisses him and touches his face. The next word she says is, "stop" but in a succumbing way.

I think the whole key to this scene is at the beginning when Cersei says, "Jaime, not here, please." She doesn't want sex "here," not I don't want sex with you.

The whole "it's not right" at the end isn't about not wanting sex, but not wanting to do it in a holy place with a dead son, and with the possibility of watchers nearby. The last frame shows her holding tight to the burial blanket or tapestry or whatever, which indicates sexual pleasure.

So, I vote no rape, just inappropriate creepy sex.

This.

[Rhasgul]

Book-conversation: (actual words transcribed)

C: "No, not here. The septons...”
J; “The Others can take the septons.”
*she's murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods*
C: “Hurry, quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.”
C: “Yes, my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home"

C: "Let me up. If we are discovered like this...”

Show-conversation:

C: Jaime, not here please
C: please
C: stop it
C: stop it
J: NO
C: stop
C: stop it
C: stop
C: stop
C: stop
C: it's not right
C: stop
C: wait
C: stop
C: it's not right
J: i don't care
C: stop
J: i don't care
J: i don't care

I think you can clearly see here that there is a fundamental difference. I know what they "tried" to portray, and I know what the true meaning behind it is. But imho it's undeniable that an Unsullied will see this as pure rape after watching it one time.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

Yeah and I noticed a couple of people being butchered in this series, at least I don't think they gave consent.

[Duckfield]

Shame. I was hoping they include the scene from Feast where he gives Pia the head of the soldier who raped her.

No chance for that now...

[Moët]

Aye, I never said it IS rape, as we all know better because of prior knowledge from books. My problem is not with what happened (which is why people going; "omg people get killed all the time" piss me off), it's with how it was portrayed in the series. They tried to use very subtle hints in a scene where context was very important imho. They butchered his character towards showwatchers as those will think that at this point in the story he's a rapist, which I am certain he's not.

I understand that Cersei deserved it, that worse things happened, even that HE did worse things, but those don't matter here. We're talking about how this specific event was translated from book to tv, which happened very poorly imho.

For what it's worth, I watch with several unsullied, and not one thought it was rape.

Very creepy, and totally in character for the twincesters, definitely. One even mentioned that while it's up in the top five, it's probably not the strangest place those two have had sex.

[Carey Snow]

Guys, I think you're blowing this out of proportion... IMO, it's not far off what it was like in aSoS.

Here is the scene in the books:

"No," she says weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "Not here. The septons. . ."

"The Others can take the Septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up on the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, and about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the Gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime. Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

So yes, Cersei tells him not to at first because it is a crazy risky place for them to have sex at, but never does she not seem to be enjoying it and clearly she consents. This never comes across in the show, and if it was meant to... it was poorly done. I left the show with the impression that show Jaime raped show Cersei. I never had that impression in the books.

[Fjordgazer]

At least we can agree binge-watching Unsullied will pay attention to the little visual details and correctly conclude it was not rape. Again, a little better writing would have made wonders. Watch the scene mute, it doesn't translate as rape.

[Carey Snow]

@Rhasgul: so we agree it's not rape, but in the unsullied's consensus, it is. I don't find anything to argue here.

I do find the reactions way out of proportion. What Jaime did was basically disregard the equivalent of the old "not now, i'm too tired" from Cersei. That's hardly one 100th of the punishment she deserves for being the biggest bitch in Westeros. Are we going to get chastised for saying that a real-life woman like Gertrude Baniszewski deserved to be raped? That's the next step.

She just said no in the show. She never said the Not now I'm too tired. Or not here, it is to risky that we will be caught. She just says no and cries.

Obviously in the book she is more worried about getting caught.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

My Unsullied Mother: "I'm disgusted with Jaime, really disappointed. Here I thought his experience with Brienne was inspiring him to try and be a better person - a "true knight" like her - but now he goes and rapes his sister?"
Me: "I know, it's atrocious. In the book, he doesn't rape her at all. He and Cersei do have sex in the sept, but it's consensual. Jaime loves Cersei deeply and is fiercely loyal to her. He would - and has - done all sorts of terrible deeds for her sake, but he would never rape her. It's a total betrayal of who he is. The showrunners are morons."

Unsullied: "I just don't know if I can get over seeing that."

Way to go, HBO. Is this what you wanted? Was it worth it? Several seasons of a redemptive arc down the toilet all to convey that Cersei's not in control of the situation? Are you mad? In what universe is that a sane exchange? You could convey the same damn thing a million other ways that don't involve rape. Of all the horrible things a character can do, rape is probably the ultimate unforgivable. We'll cheer for drug dealers on Breaking Bad, mobsters on the Sopranos, serial killers on Dexter, etc...but no one will ever cheer for a rapist. Even in prison, rapists are the lowest of the low. Disgraceful.

[Brewmaster]

So yes, Cersei tells him not to at first because it is a crazy risky place for them to have sex at, but never does she not seem to be enjoying it and clearly she consents.

Well, part of the result of being inside Jaime's head is that, much like Jaime, the reader doesn't hear her protests...

She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, and about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the Gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart.

...but protest she did

[Fjordgazer]

She just said no in the show. She never said the Not now I'm too tired. Or not here, it is to risky that we will be caught. She just says no and cries.

Obviously in the book she is more worried about getting caught.

She definitely didn't just say the word "No". She did say some words about not being in the appropriate place. Go watch the scene again.

The major change from the book dialogue is having too many "no, no's" and cutting all the "yes, yes's". And that would've made all the difference in the world to the overly sensitive Unsullied, i bet.

[Itchyscratch]

She just said no in the show. She never said the Not now I'm too tired. Or not here, it is to risky that we will be caught. She just says no and cries.

You need to rewatch it. At no point does Cersei say No.

[Fjordgazer]

You need to rewatch it. At no point does Cersei say No.

And she certainly doesn't cry. At all.

EDIT: technically she says "Don't!" once. For the sake of detail. That doesn't change the fact that it is not rape.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

Wow, I can hardly wait until LittleFinger starts flexing, the poor upset people. This show is now "Loosely based" on the books.

[Khal Porno]

I've never been so disappointed in the board and its leadership, insofar as you, Ran, are the representative of it.

you have a woman saying no, saying this is wrong, but because her hand is clutching at the man, that means yes?

I can certainly understand a defense of the scene as a poor writing/editing decision and poor cutting of the scene, rather than a deliberate decision to make Jaime a rapist, but to try to convince all the people who heard a person saying no, and believing that no mean no, that, oh but her body is saying yes if you look really closely, that is disappointing and not what I expected here.

That's quite unfair. I'd been waiting to get through the thread before replying here, but I feel like I need to go ahead and speak up in Ran's defense because this is a ridiculous charge.

I agree that it's best to err on the side of caution and take "no" for no. It's always better to be safe than sorry. However, I've been in relationships (this word is important here for context) where "no" oftentimes meant "yes" in a sexual setting, to the point where a girlfriend asked me "why'd you stop?"

There is a difference between what Cersei is saying and how she is behaving in this scene, as Ran pointed out. She kisses him back and helps him undress, and spreads her legs for him. It is clear that she allows him to do this. Knowing Cersei, if she REALLY didn't want that to happen, and Jaime really was raping her, it would have played out much more brutally.

I think they could have gone to greater lengths to clarify on-screen what was going on here though.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

She doesn't say "no," sure, but "no" is not the only way to refuse consent. Words like, "Stop" and phrases like, "It's not right" are also forms of rejection. Also, acts of physical resistance like pushing are clear indications that consent has not been given. All of this applies to the so-called "non-rape" of Cersei.

[Moët]

She just said no in the show. She never said the Not now I'm too tired. Or not here, it is to risky that we will be caught. She just says no and cries.

Obviously in the book she is more worried about getting caught.

She said a lot more than just "no."

She kept repeating, "it's not right", as she grabbed his clothing and drew him towards her, as she kissed him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g2kmZParU6A

Watch what she DOES, not what she says. She doesn't fight him physically.

[Carey Snow]

You need to rewatch it. At no point does Cersei say No.

Okay, book version:

"No," she says weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "Not here. The septons. . ."

"The Others can take the Septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up on the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, and about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the Gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime. Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair.

Show version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2kmZParU6A

Okay, I just rewatched it and I had mistaken the "stop it"s for "No"s. And it is hard to tell if she is crying at the end, but I can not say that she is, so you are right there (I only watched it once last night). None the less, all that I hear is stop it even when he is thrusting, and never do i hear her consent.

[Khal Porno]

She just said no in the show. She never said the Not now I'm too tired. Or not here, it is to risky that we will be caught. She just says no and cries.

She did say "not here," and I didn't see her crying.

[Carey Snow]

Well, part of the result of being inside Jaime's head is that, much like Jaime, the reader doesn't hear her protests...

...but protest she did

But she 100% gives consent before the actual act.

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now."

That would count as consent in any context. The protests were in context to getting caught by doing it in the sept.