Why do they treat Jaime that way?

[Martini Sigil]

Was it rape by 21st century standards? absolutely

Was it rape by Westeros standards?

It is a culture that weds young girls to old men

[Carey Snow]

She did say "not here," and I didn't see her crying.

you right, about the crying part. I was wrong when I rewatched. Last night I thought she had cried after watching it once.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I've read some of this thread but not the whole thing. Forgive me if this has been discussed but:

GRRM basically said it wasn't rape in the books. I'd hope that perspective is part of this discussion.

Author George R.R. Martin wrote about the scene Monday on his website, saying in the book, "Storm of Swords," "(Cersei) is as hungry for (Jaime) as he is for her." The dynamic, he writes, is different on the show, which played with the amount of time Jamie has been home.

"If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books," Martin writes, "it might have left a somewhat different impression." He went on to say, "The scene was always intended to be disturbing ... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons."

http://www.today.com/entertainment/game-thrones-author-controversial-cersei-scene-meant-be-disturbing-1D79560771

[kishefmakherin]

I'll paraphrase myself: let's go find an actual attorney or law student and ask him. Your opinion is as good as mine.

How do you know you don't have one already? :cool4:

It depends on whether there's a jury, and who is on that jury. And which state's laws we apply. Or maybe we apply the federal laws. Overall, it looks to me like the jury consisting of members of this forum won't be unanimous (and not just because of one or two people), so Jaime walks.

[Darth Pipes]

The show got all that publicity last week, all of it positive. They got all that publicity this week and all of it is negative. All because D and D made a stupid, baffling alteration to the original story or didn't edit the scene properly. This is a case where all publicity isn't always good publicity.

[Carey Snow]

I've read some of this thread but not the whole thing. Forgive me if this has been discussed but:

GRRM basically said it wasn't rape in the books. I'd hope that perspective is part of this discussion.

Author George R.R. Martin wrote about the scene Monday on his website, saying in the book, "Storm of Swords," "(Cersei) is as hungry for (Jaime) as he is for her." The dynamic, he writes, is different on the show, which played with the amount of time Jamie has been home.

"If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books," Martin writes, "it might have left a somewhat different impression." He went on to say, "The scene was always intended to be disturbing ... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons."

http://www.today.com/entertainment/game-thrones-author-controversial-cersei-scene-meant-be-disturbing-1D79560771

Agreed. And glad Martin is saying something. All they had to do was leave in the:

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime. Her hands helped guide him.

And they would have been fine. You have to really read between the lines to see it as not rape in the show as she tells him to stop through out. So the only way to see it as not rape is by her body language which is a tough one.

[Fjordgazer]

I fail to see how this has been "bad" publicity. Feminist blogs have been criticising controversial aspects of the show (sexposition, plentiful depiction of actual rapes) since, like, forever.

[Ser Not Appearing]

The more full quote from GRRM:

In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffreys death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each others company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why [producers] played the sept out differently. But thats just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaimes POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You dont know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cerseis dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

Thats really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Again, trying to ignore the foolishness, but sex without consent is rape. That's not any different in the books.

I was answering the guy above you, but holding tight to fabric doesn't = sexual pleasure, unless pleasure is indicated in the scene.

I had an enema once. I was clutching anything within reach, and there was definitely nothing pleasurable about the experience.

I love this concept that the only way it wasn't rape is if she was overtly fighting, both verbally and physically, absolutely every second of the encounter. I understand that being a rape victim isn't something most people can easily empathize with, but the amount of ignorance on these almost 60 pages is absolutely astounding.

[scolbert08]

Sixty pages of complaining about the third or fourth worst thing a character in a fictional series fictionally did. People certainly have their priorities in the right place.

[Fjordgazer]

I had an enema once. I was clutching anything within reach, and there was definitely nothing pleasurable about the experience.

I love this concept that the only way it wasn't rape is if she was overtly fighting, both verbally and physically, absolutely every second of the encounter. I understand that being a rape victim isn't something most people can easily empathize with, but the amount of ignorance on these almost 60 pages is absolutely astounding.

You're just one step away from labelling all of us who don't agree with your limited worldview a potential rapist. Keep it up!

I refer you to Seneti's post in page 57. Just so, you know, start to realize it's not a black and white issue.

[davos]

*mod hat* Ok, folks, this is a not so friendly reminder that rape apology will not be tolerated on this board. Discussing rather the scene in question was rape is ok. Discussing the implications of the characters and how it changes the story is an expected part of this forum. Discussing rather the director's intentions as revealed in interviews were achieved in the product that made it to film is fine. When you cross the line into saying a character deserved to be raped, that is not ok. Please keep this in mind. Thank you. */mod hat*

[Marillon]

The big question is, why do it that way. What did they accomplish by this. A lot of female viewers are already pretty turned off by a number of things in the way the story (which was pretty sensitive in the way it was presented in the books) has been adapted and presented.

Did this advance the story in some way that having Cersei say "Do me now" would not have done? If it didn't quite work, and it was absolutely necessary to bring Jaime back early (and I question the wisdom of this from an dramatic perspective, I think it sucked the drama out of this and other scenes) did they have to show the scene at all?

What was gained? I think nothing, and something was lost. I think they'll likely just carry on like nothing happened, meanwhile, this is pretty disturbing to have a character who has taken a stand repeatedly against rape in the narrative (and that's important) rape this woman who has meant so much to him. It seems like they don't weigh these things at all.

Exactly what I've been asking myself too, why? Unless Cersei in a mad fit of rage is later going to stab Jaime, what was the point of this change? It did nothing that sticking to the book wouldn't have done. The show is not suffering for ratings either that it needed a controversy boost, so what exactly was the point of this? Actually the fact that it got obviously consensual in the books heightened the scene even more and made it creepier, now it just doesn't make any sense. Maybe something happens further on that will make me go "ahhh so that's why they changed it", but right now, it's just stupid.

[Fjordgazer]

*mod hat* Ok, folks, this is a not so friendly reminder that rape apology will not be tolerated on this board. Discussing rather the scene in question was rape is ok. Discussing the implications of the characters and how it changes the story is an expected part of this forum. Discussing rather the director's intentions as revealed in interviews were achieved in the product that made it to film is fine. When you cross the line into saying a character deserved to be raped, that is not ok. Please keep this in mind. Thank you. */mod hat*

I gather this comment is directed particularly at me, related to certain post of mine that disappeared. Fair enough, i've been lurking the forums for a few months, but i'm new to commenting.

Just so we're clear. Is it forbidden as well to express that a character deserves to die? Is "death apology" not tolerated here either?

Excuse my slightly sarcastic tone.

[Kat]

I gather this comment is directed particularly at me, related to certain post of mine that disappeared. Fair enough, i've been lurking the forums for a few months, but i'm new to commenting.

Just so we're clear. Is it forbidden as well to express that a character deserves to die? Is "death apology" not tolerated here either?

Excuse my slightly sarcastic tone.

We (the mods) are pretty intolerant of wishing rape or torture on characters. It's really distasteful, but rape in particular as a means of revenge is particularly a way to alienate a significant number of female and male posters.

ETA: And if anyone wants to know who deleted their posts, it was me. I went on a deleting binge for ones that went way over the line. Because if I were just doing ones I found personally distasteful, half this thread would be gone. This thread is way over the post limit and close to being shut down for repetitiveness and length anyway.

[Fjordgazer]

OK. Death wishes = good. Torture and Rape wishes = not good. No love for Death Metal lyrics then :D

Now seriously, i get it. I'll abide by the rules.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

My mom's reaction: Before the episode started she made a comment about how she hated that Jamie was good now. She just thought he was far more interesting bad (and with longer hair). However, after the controversial scene she doesn't like him at all. Just one reaction, but at least to her, an unsullied, they went over the line.

[davos]

I gather this comment is directed particularly at me, related to certain post of mine that disappeared. Fair enough, i've been lurking the forums for a few months, but i'm new to commenting.

Just so we're clear. Is it forbidden as well to express that a character deserves to die? Is "death apology" not tolerated here either?

Excuse my slightly sarcastic tone.

I know Kat commented on this but I wish to clarify my point. Its a fictional world, so its fine to wish things on characters that you wouldn't on a real person. Stating that someone deserves to die as a consequence of their actions is very different than wishing this on a person in real life. There are certain subjects though, where we have much less tolerance, particularly rape. Given the statistics about the number of people who dealt with rape during their lives, there are certainly a number of boarders who have either experienced this personally or are close to someone who has. Many of them have heard the same justifications to say a fictional rape was ok or that a character deserved it used to defend real life sexual assaults and rapes. Hence, we have a very low tolerance for posts containing this type of content. A similar approach is applied to torture.

[voodooqueen126]

Rape is worse than fucking your sister. The point however is that Jaime was on an upswing he's supposed to be redeeming himself inch by inch. Rape now sets him back again for no reason.

There is also the horrifying possibility that the director's believe that it is acceptable to rape Cersei because she's an evil woman who needs to be punished.

[KalibakCruel]

There is also the horrifying possibility that the director's believe that it is acceptable to rape Cersei because she's an evil woman who needs to be punished.

And here I hadn't considered that things COULD be worse.