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Tommen and Tywin (book spoilers)


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Tommen is the second son of a king in a world where medicine is at a low level and people die young all the time. It is idiotic not to prepare him for the distinct possibility of becoming king one day. besides, as a high ranked royal he needs to know about politics and governing even if he never becomes a king.

Based on various Bran POVs, it's clear that Ned taught *his* second born son much better than Cerse did hers, and even Tyrion (whom Tywin hates) seems to have got better training. Ofc, as Joff showed, Cersei's idea of training somebody to rule is just telling them they're in charge; unfortunately, as we see in Cersei's POVs, that really all she knows, so in some way, you can say she taught Joff everything she knew about how to rule.

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GOT is an unprecedented behemoth as TV productions go. People need to be more tolerant about the liberties D&D must take to cast it properly.

Exactly this. :agree:

And some liberties with the plot as well. We who have read the books know more than the average watcher, but still it's a TV Series - a completely different means than a book or a movie at a cinema.

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If it were the exact same thing like in the books, every scene, every letter, then I wouldn't be sitting, gnawing my fingers for the next episode. I know how it will end, but I do not know how they will get there.

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Exactly this. :agree:

And some liberties with the plot as well. We who have read the books know more than the average watcher, but still it's a TV Series - a completely different means than a book or a movie at a cinema.

Agreed. I don't think it's realistic to view them as separate entities (or useful even...just two different mediums), and some of their changes are worth discussing, but something like this I don't think should be overly criticized. I like New!Tommen who is only one year older IRL than Old!Tommen, and I think a pre-teen kid will be more interesting to watch than a 6-year-old.

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People need to be more tolerant about the liberties D&D must take to cast it properly.

I agree.

The only important thing about Tommen (his essence) is that he's easily manipulable. The rest (what makes his characterization : age, features, hobbies, behaviour) can be changed as long as the essence of the character is faithful to the books.

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Based on various Bran POVs, it's clear that Ned taught *his* second born son much better than Cerse did hers, and even Tyrion (whom Tywin hates) seems to have got better training. Ofc, as Joff showed, Cersei's idea of training somebody to rule is just telling them they're in charge; unfortunately, as we see in Cersei's POVs, that really all she knows, so in some way, you can say she taught Joff everything she knew about how to rule.

As a historical reference, Henry viii wasnt brought up to rule, in one bio i read, it is said thats why he wasnt raised as strict as his brother arthur was and liked to play games and joust and have masquerades where he posed as a commoner...

2nd sons were brought up with more leniancy; case and point oberyn and the blackfish

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The scene was excellent. It was typical Tywin in that his grandson is dead, but he's already thinking of how he's going to need to ensure that the Lannisters don't suffer badly from it. Loved his honesty in admitting that Joffrey was a bad king when his grieving mother was right there.



I think it's clear that while Tommen will remain a thoroughly decent kid who's innocent and a much better person than Joffrey, because he's older he'll be a lot more aware and involved, potentially leading to more of Tywin trying to train him this season. Then, when we get to next season it won't be so simple for Cersei to control him as it was in the books. We could already see here that she simply couldn't get a word in when Tywin was speaking. Building up Tywin/Tommen will make the scene from AFFC where Tommen gets upset at his grandfather's body quite poignant, assuming they retain it in some sort of way. Really interested to see the direction they take the character in now though.


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I don't think he's trying to teach Tommen, I think he's trying to assess how much Tommen already knows and what his basic nature/intelligence is.

What I think is going on. He was testing to see if Tommen was more like Joffery, or if he had the potential to be molded into the puppet king is trully desires.

He shows almost genuiene surprise when Tommen comes up with the answer of wisdom. Surprise and almost joy and satisfaction. Like he is saying in his mind "YES!! I can use this boy"

I also think it juxtaposes with Cersei's season one lessons of Joffery, her views on power and seeing everyone but "us" (which I think Joffery warps into "me") is an enemy.

We see that Tommen isn't Joffery is everyway, and Tywin is definitely not Cersei.

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What I think is going on. He was testing to see if Tommen was more like Joffery, or if he had the potential to be molded into the puppet king is trully desires.

He shows almost genuiene surprise when Tommen comes up with the answer of wisdom. Surprise and almost joy and satisfaction. Like he is saying in his mind "YES!! I can use this boy"

I also think it juxtaposes with Cersei's season one lessons of Joffery, her views on power and seeing everyone but "us" (which I think Joffery warps into "me") is an enemy.

We see that Tommen isn't Joffery is everyway, and Tywin is definitely not Cersei.

I don't see Tywin as wanting to turn his grandson into a puppet -- presumably Tywin will die before Tommen, and I don't think he plans on passing on Tommen to somebody else to use as a puppet when he dies.

Joffrey had no wisdom, and started actively making his own policy without regard to what his councilors said as soon as he was crowed, which was about the same time he became "a man grown". His first real act was to have Ned beheaded, which made it impossible to make peace with Robb Stark, and almost cost Jaime his life.

So I don't see Tywin telling Tommen that "a young king listens to his advisors until he's grown, and keeps listening to them after that" as trying to make Tommen a puppet as much as it's saying, "and just because you turn 16 doesn't mean you stop listening to other people." Both Ned and Tywin (and Robb) are shown listening to their bannerman's opinions and thoughts before coming to a final conclusion, and are respected for doing so by the people watching them (Tyrion, Cateline).

In the books, *Cersei* clearly sees herself as ruling through Tywin, but I honestly don't see Tywin as wanting to usurp his grandson's rule.

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Hate to be that guy, but I hated the scene after rewatch. It was...ok, first of all, does Tywin have the worst tact in the world or what? I mean, I know it was Joffrey and all but he's not even cold and Tywin is dissing him literally over his own body. If I were Tommen I would have said, "emm, grandpa, are you sure this is the right time for this?"



Seriously, between this and interrupting Oberyn in the middle of his orgy, I think Tywin is senile, really. Or just a major cockblocker (I think everyone related to the Lannisters have been cockblocking Oberyn since he arrived at KL. No wonder he wants to kill them all)



And the conversation had this clumsy like history lesson feel to it. Like, Tommen guessing and all that. And it went on for too long.



And yeah, Tommen's way too old for the character. There, I said it. He's going to fuck Margaery on their wedding night, just you wait.



Sorry for being such a negative dickhead, but this episode really bummed me out


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Dunno where to put this... first time posting, but it seems relevant to the topic.


Did anyone else notice Tommen had the exact same outfit as Tywin during the sept scene? Say for it being a different color it was basically spot on to Tywins. I don't recall Joffery ever wearing such an outfit and to me this feels like a subtle hint at how much a puppet Tommen really is to Tywin.


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Dunno where to put this... first time posting, but it seems relevant to the topic.

Did anyone else notice Tommen had the exact same outfit as Tywin during the sept scene? Say for it being a different color it was basically spot on to Tywins. I don't recall Joffery ever wearing such an outfit and to me this feels like a subtle hint at how much a puppet Tommen really is to Tywin.

It's not about hinting he is a puppet, but more that he is more drawn to Tywin and kinda mimics him, becomes like him, optically for a start. A common thing in films. But nice find!

It is also worth noting that Tommen's previous outfits were a lot baratheonic, with the byzantene looks of the brass elements. Now he embraces more the lannisterian look, but still a little nod to the brass ornaments

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