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Tommen and Tywin (book spoilers)


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Hate to be that guy, but I hated the scene after rewatch. It was...ok, first of all, does Tywin have the worst tact in the world or what? I mean, I know it was Joffrey and all but he's not even cold and Tywin is dissing him literally over his own body. If I were Tommen I would have said, "emm, grandpa, are you sure this is the right time for this?"

He's the guy who made his son watch on as his wife was raped, who basically told his son and daughter who to marry without caring about how they felt, and who pretty much disowned his son for staying in the KG. Fair to say he certainly lacks some tact.

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I wish they would have said Aenys the first instead of making up a king Orys. Wasn't there speculation that Maegor killed him or something too? If not, it still sounds like something Maegor would do.

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Best Youtube comment

"A brief translation of this scene from Tywinese to English:
You are quiet and easy to manipulate.

Everything you consider to be good is wrong.

You are young and stupid and need to rely on me to know what is not wrong.

Even when you are older and smarter you will never be as smart or as old as me.

Your brother thought he didn’t need me and look what happened to him."

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The way that Tywin has been portrayed in the series makes his co-option of Tommen seem not as self-serving (as we typically think of the term) as it would under other circumstances.



Most powerful men telling a young sovereign "You'll listen to me throughout your reign if you know what's good for you!" would be doing so mainly for their own self-aggrandizement and to remain in (or at least close to) real power for their own sake.



But this version of Tywin seems somewhat different. This version of Tywin is fanatically obsessed with the legacy of the Lannister name, and his been all but blase about his own personal fate from the first time we meet him ("Soon I'll be dead...it's the family name that lives on.") up through his scene with Jaime in S4 Ep 1 (casually remarking that he'll die before ever returning to Casterly Rock.) Tywin is desperate to save House Lannister from the ruin that would befall it should Tommen turn into another Joffrey.


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He's the guy who made his son watch on as his wife was raped, who basically told his son and daughter who to marry without caring about how they felt, and who pretty much disowned his son for staying in the KG. Fair to say he certainly lacks some tact.

You may use the rape as argument, you may not use the forced marriage. The beloved Starks married their kids off as well. Just like the Tullys, who I consider the worst in that. Marrying your 16 year old daughter to a 55 year old creep and consent the marriage..I say rape.

So much for this.

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You may use the rape as argument, you may not use the forced marriage. The beloved Starks married their kids off as well. Just like the Tullys, who I consider the worst in that. Marrying your 16 year old daughter to a 55 year old creep and consent the marriage..I say rape.

So much for this.

That's maybe not the best argument, but the point is that he's ultimately not a man of tact. When in a diplomatic situation, maybe, but not around his own family when he doesn't need to be.

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I wish they would have said Aenys the first instead of making up a king Orys. Wasn't there speculation that Maegor killed him or something too? If not, it still sounds like something Maegor would do.

and millions of viewers would have gone...what did he say ? Anus the First ?.

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That's maybe not the best argument, but the point is that he's ultimately not a man of tact. When in a diplomatic situation, maybe, but not around his own family when he doesn't need to be.

Well, I kinda understand him.. His son Tyrion looks to Tywin like the perfect image of Tytos. A witty man, all laugh at him, he fucks with whores, showers them in money and Tyrion always plays the fool when he is around Tywin. If he would for once be the smart guy and serious. The scene where they discuss the swords it works. Pefect scene of the two. Exactly like the last chapter in agot. But Tyrion is overly stupid and always triggers his own awkward moments with Tywin. And you have to understand Tywin. Tytos was the ruin for the family and Tywin did all to restore the family and now he sees his heir as the same fool as Tytos.

I don't say he is a humanist or he does the right thing in terms of family relations, but I understand his actions.(not defend them, understand them)

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It's not about hinting he is a puppet, but more that he is more drawn to Tywin and kinda mimics him, becomes like him, optically for a start. A common thing in films. But nice find!

It is also worth noting that Tommen's previous outfits were a lot baratheonic, with the byzantene looks of the brass elements. Now he embraces more the lannisterian look, but still a little nod to the brass ornaments

So maybe it isn't a puppet, but maybe through his grilling of Tommen he sees the potential of not only a good king, but a good heir to the Lannister name.

As it has been said Tywin is obsessed with preserving the family line. Season 3 showed how he has no faith in Tyrion and Cersei, and this season pretty much starts with him disowning Jamie because he won't take over the Rock and be Lannister heir he has been wanting.

Maybe he sees Tommen as some he can mold to actually be his "heir" (not in a literal sense, but be him) and the mimicing of clothes could be a hint.

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Well, I kinda understand him.. His son Tyrion looks to Tywin like the perfect image of Tytos. A witty man, all laugh at him, he fucks with whores, showers them in money and Tyrion always plays the fool when he is around Tywin. If he would for once be the smart guy and serious. The scene where they discuss the swords it works. Pefect scene of the two. Exactly like the last chapter in agot. But Tyrion is overly stupid and always triggers his own awkward moments with Tywin. And you have to understand Tywin. Tytos was the ruin for the family and Tywin did all to restore the family and now he sees his heir as the same fool as Tytos.

I don't say he is a humanist or he does the right thing in terms of family relations, but I understand his actions.(not defend them, understand them)

:agree: 100% agree

Good point earlier about the other families marrying off their children. Stark, Tully, Baratheon, Targaryen-- doesn't matter they are all guilty of it at some point in time. Furthermore, his marriage of Cersei to Robert made her a queen.. Robert was a drunken mess but as a father Tywin pretty much married her into the greatest position of power and social class he could.

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Age and maturity has nothing to do with it. Aenys sounds like anus and it's fucking distracting (and funny).

Exactly. I never realized it because I never said it out loud before, but it's really distracting.

Despite Tywin's blatant manipulation of Tommen, I do think he does care about Tommen to some extent.

Maybe it'll translate better in Tommen's reaction at Tywin's funeral. Maybe he'll be ore broken up than he was with Joffrey.

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Exactly. I never realized it because I never said it out loud before, but it's really distracting.

Despite Tywin's blatant manipulation of Tommen, I do think he does care about Tommen to some extent.

Maybe it'll translate better in Tommen's reaction at Tywin's funeral. Maybe he'll be ore broken up than he was with Joffrey.

I sure he truly cares about Tommen. He finally has a someone he can mold into what he thinks a great king should be.

This is probably the opportunity he's been waiting for his whole life.

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Someone in his mid 20s trying to pass for 17-18 year old is one thing (no big deal), but a 16 year old playing a 10 year old is a different thing altogether.

teaching politics in itself is not childish. Teaching it the way Tywin did it here is definitely childish.

But Tommen IS childish, despite his age. Look at him and look at Bran in Winterfell. Tommen is overprotected by Cersei, while she let Joffrey loose. If anything, there is a contrast between them and they both have the same age but while Ned took Brandon to witness justice, Tommen doesn't even know how babies are made.

Hate to be that guy, but I hated the scene after rewatch. It was...ok, first of all, does Tywin have the worst tact in the world or what? I mean, I know it was Joffrey and all but he's not even cold and Tywin is dissing him literally over his own body. If I were Tommen I would have said, "emm, grandpa, are you sure this is the right time for this?"

At least he didn't stay for the next scene. Poor Joffrey, his own family screwing him over his dead body. Almost literally.

Seriously, between this and interrupting Oberyn in the middle of his orgy, I think Tywin is senile, really. Or just a major cockblocker (I think everyone related to the Lannisters have been cockblocking Oberyn since he arrived at KL. No wonder he wants to kill them all)

:lol:
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You may use the rape as argument, you may not use the forced marriage. The beloved Starks married their kids off as well. Just like the Tullys, who I consider the worst in that. Marrying your 16 year old daughter to a 55 year old creep and consent the marriage..I say rape.

So much for this.

FYI, Jon Arryn wasn't a "55 year old creep", he was an old man with no direct heir looking for an army to help protect the two boys he had taken on as Wards...marrying Lysa was the price he paid to Hoster for the army. Hoster didn't consent to the marriage, he required Jon Arryn to consent in order to get the army he wanted.

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I wish Tommen would have given some grand speech on wisdom just to see Tywin and Cersei's reaction. :drunk:

"...And that, Lord Grandfather, is why I most heartedly believe beets should be outlawed for the greater good of the realm."

*Cue Tywin's facepalm*

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"...And that, Lord Grandfather, is why I most heartedly believe beets should be outlawed for the greater good of the realm."

*Cue Tywin's facepalm*

"Your Grace, what is to be done with this traitor?"

"Throw him into the beet pit! Muahaha."

*pets Ser Pounce happily*

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