Ravi Seaworth Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 The best scene of the episode without hesitation, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 :agree: 100% agree Good point earlier about the other families marrying off their children. Stark, Tully, Baratheon, Targaryen-- doesn't matter they are all guilty of it at some point in time. Furthermore, his marriage of Cersei to Robert made her a queen.. Robert was a drunken mess but as a father Tywin pretty much married her into the greatest position of power and social class he could. And what people seem to miss, Cersei could handle Bob. He raped her and beat her and her children, but in the end she stood on top. She said him, if he ever were to touch Joff, she would kill him, so he stopped, she manipulated him into going against his best friend when the wolf bit Joffrey...and more points. He was a cruel monster, but Cersei could manage him, something not even Ned managed. Not to forget: She usurped the usurper without him even knowing, he even signed Joffrey as his true heir. Still. Tywin should have accepted Oberyn after the marriage to Rhaegar failed. Stupid fool, Cersei would have been happy forever if she could get Oberyn and Dornish law is what Cersei wants anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 FYI, Jon Arryn wasn't a "55 year old creep", he was an old man with no direct heir looking for an army to help protect the two boys he had taken on as Wards...marrying Lysa was the price he paid to Hoster for the army. Hoster didn't consent to the marriage, he required Jon Arryn to consent in order to get the army he wanted. The hell he was, the hell he was! He was a 55 year old creep whose wives died and his children, too and now he goes for a 16 old woman(in this world at least) and consents the marriage. multiple times. And fails every time. Only once, maybe, did it work with Robert Arryn. And look at Lysa, she is one of the female character who really could never come to like their marriage. She never wanted him. Cat at least grew into liking it, but Lysa...never. And first give me quotes for "Hoster didn't consent"..it's not like Jon jumped at Cat's marriage and raised a cup and married Lysa a the spot. They planned that double marriage and Hoster was happy about it, because Lysa was no more virgin, she even had an abortion prior to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I really think that complete sequence made little sense. It clearly established that Tywin intends to make Tommen his puppet, and that's not what a man with his knowledge and experience should do. He is a rather old man, he may not even be around long enough to see Tommen come of age (that's 18 in the TV show, and Tommen should be of the same age as Bran in the show). And even if he did, how will it help House Lannister or the royal dynasty if the King is unable to make decisions of his own, or decide who is a bad or a good counselor? Cersei and Margaery later fight to control Tommen the puppet king, but Tywin and Kevan actually were determined to make him better king material than Joffrey was. They - especially Kevan later on - shielded him from the bad things happening around him, true, but he is still a child. And, please, do not invent your own petty kings to hammer home a point. There never was a King Orys, and King Aenys I Targaryen was not the one they actually meant, since Aenys died neither a year after his coronation nor did he reform anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Nah, he was just doing what I do in real life. Talking to someone with much less knowledge than you, on a particular subject, you want to start off with the most obvious things to bring them up later when the subject becomes complicated. The wisdom talk, for the most part, was Tywin's first step to conditioning Tommen as a pragmatist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 If anything, there is a contrast between them and they both have the same age but while Ned took Brandon to witness justice, Tommen doesn't even know how babies are made. Well, famously, Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette managed to miss some important particulars on the subject while living in the midst of the notoriously randy French court ;). And it required the visit of her brother the Emperor Joseph II to give 20+ year-old Louis "the talk" and enlighten him on the pertinent details. Talking about _really_ awkward, heh. Also, book Bran had pretty hazy ideas about sex, despite witnessing an execution, having seen animals copulating and even denizens of WF carrying on during celebrations, etc. Not sure why they didn't just rename Aenys into "Aerys I". Why Orys? Oh, well... One of the things that was a bit odd about book Tywin and was certainly a big factor in his mis-management of his kids was that he has never verbally torn the golden twins a new one for their many failures. Even with Cersei, whom he was depriving of her power and trying to marry off to contain the damage she did/was doing, Tywin was very oblique, even protective as far as direct criticism was concerned. "It seems that things needed to be said" - very mild indeed. And he could have easily guilted Jaime into caving in on the subject of CR, what with Tyrion's life on the line and how Jaime's own personal failures lead to their current situation and Jaime's poor public image. Instead, he just went all sulky on Jaime and gave him the silent treatment. It seems that he never reprimanded Jaime for any of his more problematic actions, even when they hurt House Lannister in some way. The only kid Tywin really criticized in some detail was Tyrion and that only because Tyrion ticked him off sufficiently to provoke him into letting loose. In the books, I was under impression that Tywin may have been finally realizing his limitations as a parental figure towards the end and moving Kevan into that spot re: Tommen, for which the latter was much more suited. In the show, of course, Kevan has been pretty much left out and Tywin and Jaime acquired parts of his role/personality as a result. And in this episode we finally see some hint of show Tywin as an able politician, rather than a ruthless blowhard he had been until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I thought it was fantastic, Tywin not-so-subtly insulting Cersei's parenting, him taking Tomnen from me under his own wing, and him showing how he's going to be pulling the strings, how he needs a puppet and also how shit Joffrey was that even his own grandfather couldn't stand him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 It's pretty clear Tywin at least somewhat blames Cersei for Joffrey being such a little shit. He did more kingly grooming in five minutes than Cersei ever did.Well, it was Cersei, and Jaime, and Robert most of all, 's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Joffrey is a horrible child, but Cersei did not raise him to become a horrible child. There are so many murderers and rapists out there, but I doubt their parents raised them to be that way.Some people are just born pure evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 A large number of people studying psychology might argue with that. You don't have to raise someone to be a horrible child for them being a horrible child to be a consequence of your raising them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 A large number of people studying psychology might argue with that. You don't have to raise someone to be a horrible child for them being a horrible child to be a consequence of your raising them A large number of psychologists are morons who would say anything to make a bit more money of senseless medication and hours of sessions that come to no result... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Well, they are more the research type who are backing this up with evidence. Attachment theory is highly prominent in psychiatric disorders, specifically personality disorders and sociopathy, seen by many as far more important a factor than genetics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Don't think psychologists can prescribe medication either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 And CBT etc are proven clinically to actually be of huge benefit in a number of conditions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm sorry, I shouldn't be so antagonistic. It's not been a good few days IRL, but no excuse for being rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm sorry, I shouldn't be so antagonistic. It's not been a good few days IRL, but no excuse for being rude I didn't take it as rude. It's just a different opinion. I see you are apparently a student of medicine or something, I just am the guy who knows people with conditions and their experience with crazy psychologists that didn't help them at all, except for prescribing them every medication they thought would help and all.. and teachers who play the amateur psychologists. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Unfortunately we aren't very good with psych yet, and some therapists etc are indubitably charlatans, but that doesn't mean they all are! As for upbringing, I think it's fair to say it's a mixture of nature, upbringing and luck, but Cersei's mix of pampering and use of Joffrey as a weapon against Robert alongside Robert's utterly failure as a father and Jaime's lack of involvement can't have helped Joff's crazy genes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Unfortunately we aren't very good with psych yet, and some therapists etc are indubitably charlatans, but that doesn't mean they all are! As for upbringing, I think it's fair to say it's a mixture of nature, upbringing and luck, but Cersei's mix of pampering and use of Joffrey as a weapon against Robert alongside Robert's utterly failure as a father and Jaime's lack of involvement can't have helped Joff's crazy genes But then explain why Tommen and Myrcella are such gems ? I mean Myrcella is a badass. She is so young, yet she has the ability to inspire people and especially inspire loyalty in people. Myrcella is Cersei's child. Not Joffrey. Joffrey is his own child. I think if we go to a psychological explanation thing, then the moment where Rob broke Joff's teeth and the time he slapped him when he presented the kittens are the catalysts. Not upbringing by Cersei. She did certainly not tell Joff to cut open a cat. So yeah, even if people are quick to hate Cersei and think she is an awful parent..two out of three of her kids are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 From what we've seen in the books though she has spent a lot more time "raising" Joff, unless that is merely a bias because we don't get to see her interactions with the others in the series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Robert Baratheon is an awful role model, that much I agree with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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