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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VII: Agency issues and the death of Chekhov's gun


Mladen

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probably because, other than the kiss in the snow, he doesn't forcefully kiss her. his kisses may be unwelcome but he isn't being forceful about it as much as cajoling them out of her. "that's not how you kiss your father" type of stuff isn't forceful. it's never been about any threat of force but rather other, more subtle implied threats to both of them, false promises and outright lies.

besides, according to an interview with aiden, it will be more fatherly or uncle-ly. that might mean all the kisses are out. hard to say.

I think that Aiden is trolling the crap out of everyone in those interviews.

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I think that Aiden is trolling the crap out of everyone in those interviews.

:idea: tbh, as i was typing my reply about the interview i thought but doesn't littlefinger in the book think he's being fatherly? :devil:

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probably because, other than the kiss in the snow, he doesn't forcefully kiss her. his kisses may be unwelcome but he isn't being forceful about it as much as cajoling them out of her. "that's not how you kiss your father" type of stuff isn't forceful. it's never been about any threat of force but rather other, more subtle implied threats to both of them, false promises and outright lies.

I would disagree on this. When in Gates of the Moon LF kissed Sansa, it was not cajoling but blunt force:

He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time.

There is obvious force on her in this... He doe cajoling her in different occasions, but when we speak of his kisses, they are indeed forceful, pushing her boundaries of tolerance but by bit with every kiss.

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I would disagree on this. When in Gates of the Moon LF kissed Sansa, it was not cajoling but blunt force:

He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time.

There is obvious force on her in this... He doe cajoling her in different occasions, but when we speak of his kisses, they are indeed forceful, pushing her boundaries of tolerance but by bit with every kiss.

it might be the language constraints because there is nothing to imply force in that scene:

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her. “I did not expect you back so soon,” she said. “I am glad you’ve come.”

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing.

discomfort about the situation, which i've said, but not force. and yes, he is pushing the boundaries. that's his strategy with her, not forcing her.

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I like the hairnet theory and it can still happen that way in the books, whereas she uses some other poison in the show. This wouldn't even be close the the largest variance between the two mediums and it's somewhat understandable given the need to emphasize the point for the show. After all, it should beg the question for show-watchers... What was the point of Littlefinger having the necklace crafted?

I don't agree so much on the Sansa agency focus that these threads represent. It is admittedly somewhat different in the show but her agency was always subtle (to me) in the books and (imo) largely overstated on these forums. I view show Sansa as largely unchanged. Many disagree and that's fine.

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And they're not moving down-mountain for the winter, probably, to both save on set design costs and because that trip is pretty dull without Mya Stone existing anyway (and they cut Cat's ascent back in season 1, so we don't have the symmetry/resonance of doing it again in the other direction).

I think the trip down the mountain is important because it fundamentally changes the circumstances Sansa's in (i.e., there's way more people around). And since the show tore down the Eyrie's high hall set after this season, I think that indicates they can be very sure there's no further need for it.

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Ooh, I've missed out on this Sansa poisoning LF theory.



I wasn't under the impression she really hated him that much. He did save her life and is teaching her a lot about how to survive. She is developing under his tutelage into an interesting character.



I haven't really been made to dislike him enough to want him dead. He hasn't done anything that has really been disastrous for the realm, unlike most every other character.


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Hasn't he? Egging on this conflagration? And how do you think Sansa will react once she learns of LF's role in betraying her father?

I'm torn about her future. She's one of the few characters who maintains her moral center throughout the series. Whatever happens to her, she stays good. I know people think she becomes interesting learning from LF but I honestly worry for her.

Arya's already slipping. LF's tutelage shouldn't do that to Sansa, I hope.

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(Long time lurker delurking here) I agree with whoever said that making a big deal out of destroying the necklace was a deliberate nod to book readers. Sure Sansa still has a way to poison LF, but I am getting more and more convinced that I am guilty of reading what I want to happen in Sansa's arc, rather than what is happening.



This is a bit of an aside, but I can't imagine how confusing that necklace scene must have been for someone who hasn't read the books. I mean, I had to rewatch the scene where the QoT takes out the last gem a few times to be sure of it. To non-book readers the whole thing would just look kind of random.


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(Long time lurker delurking here) I agree with whoever said that making a big deal out of destroying the necklace was a deliberate nod to book readers. Sure Sansa still has a way to poison LF, but I am getting more and more convinced that I am guilty of reading what I want to happen in Sansa's arc, rather than what is happening.

This is a bit of an aside, but I can't imagine how confusing that necklace scene must have been for someone who hasn't read the books. I mean, I had to rewatch the scene where the QoT takes out the last gem a few times to be sure of it. To non-book readers the whole thing would just look kind of random.

I got the chance to grill my Unsullied brother in law yesterday (he's obsessed with the show, but can barely get through Book 1).

He guessed Dontos or Sansa. All I said was "what happened between them before the wedding?" and he mentioned the necklace, but still didn't put it together. I suppose he has more info after last night.

Point is, it's not obvious to the Unsullied. Even after LF talks about the necklace (according to my brother, another Unsullied), it's still not obvious, especially because Tywin seems so happy with the turn of events. Not a single Unsullied I've spoken to has caught the QoT mussing with Sansa's necklace.

I think they'll need to make it more obvious in the next epi or 2.

ETA as I said earlier, LF left chucks of the stone on the railing. Sansa could still find them (on rail or deck), and the Unsullied could see Sansa working out what happened. She could still save some shards.

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I think that Aiden is trolling the crap out of everyone in those interviews.

Agreed. "Avuncular," my ass.

I think the trip down the mountain is important because it fundamentally changes the circumstances Sansa's in (i.e., there's way more people around). And since the show tore down the Eyrie's high hall set after this season, I think that indicates they can be very sure there's no further need for it.

Hm. Well, the Eyrie post-ASOS scenes don't really need to take place in the high hall, so I guess it makes sense that they would do that.

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I could be far off but way back in AGoT in the books during the tourney feast, Sansa is sitting next to Joffrey and eating. I am one of those readers that believes that GRRM has laced these books with hints and symbols and lemon cakes are associated with Sansa. At the tourney Sansa ate two lemon cakes and was contemplating eating a third one despite feeling full. There is a reason GRRM is writing this little point!



However we also have a quick little discussion between Jon Snow and Jeor Mormont on their trip to Crasters where Jeor M makes comments about lemons and pie and poison. More hints!!



The hairnet was used to poison somebody for sure but what has always worried me more is the fact that Sansa and Sweet Robin had a discussion about how many lemon cakes Sweet Robin can have at the feast and LF is telling Sansa that he plans on SR to not be around much longer.



My worry is that LF will poison SR with a lemon cake and once again Sansa will be implicated..or LF will try to poison SR and Sansa might even become ill somehow by accidentally eating a laced lemon cake herself. I noticed that Tyrion looked at Sansa during the PW and thinks to himself how she looks deathly pale. All in all I am worried about lemon cakes, poison, LF manipulations and Sansa being fingered for his death or something happening but lemon cakes might be our clue. Also I always hoped Sansa would save the hairnet..not to use against LF but that in the future that hairnet might somehow prove her words against LF once she realizes he was behind everything bad that has happened to her family.


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I never knew about the hairnet theory and I never thought it was important in anything but Joffrey's murder. And having Sansa use it to poison LF is, to be honest, pretty cheesy. Why would anyone even be keeping this thing after it was used that way?





My favourite Tumblr caption for that scene.



Cripes, though, she's so noticeably taller than him, especially with her hair like that. I love Turner's height, but it really does kind of unbalance the way audiences typically read scenes on film, because normally height = command, but the only scene partner Sansa has ever had who is taller than her is the Hound, and she hardly had any scenes with him. She towers over everybody else, even while they're the ones normally imposing on her.





That's great then, since "height = command" is absolute nonsense. People don't have power because they're tall - except in schoolyard or, somewhat, in battle - but because they have social and political power. (Not that Sansa is likely to even be physically stronger than men who are around her height.) The Hound is huge and intimidating, and for almost all of the first 2 seasons was being ordered around by Joffrey. Same thing with every other KG member and everyone else. It's not like Joffrey had power because he was physically imposing. Tyrion is a dwarf and shorter than all of the adults we've seen him with, but being a Lannister gave him considerable power over everyone but the members of his family, and when he was the Hand of the King, he was equally powerful as Cersei and Joffrey (also not incredibly big or muscular people) and was the only one who was able to stop Joffrey's abuse of Sansa sometimes, since he was only one of the two people in KL who could stop Joffrey and not expect to get punished for it (and the other one, Cersei, didn't care to do that).



Even the Mountain does what Tywin orders him to do.


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I never knew about the hairnet theory and I never thought it was important in anything but Joffrey's murder. And having Sansa use it to poison LF is, to be honest, pretty cheesy. Why would anyone even be keeping this thing after it was used that way?

Hence the theory. Sansa deliberately kept the hairnet.

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The poison-bearing jewelry is no more in this continuity. Sansa's going to have to suplex him.

And they're not moving down-mountain for the winter, probably, to both save on set design costs and because that trip is pretty dull without Mya Stone existing anyway (and they cut Cat's ascent back in season 1, so we don't have the symmetry/resonance of doing it again in the other direction).

Ergo, Sansa Suplexes Littlefinger Through The Moon Door. It will be so ridiculous, it will instantly become my favorite scene in the history of television.

LOL!!!

The idea that LF would be that stupid to let himself be poisoned by the same thing he used in a murder is really cheesy.

Yer missing the point of the theory. The point is that Littlefinger drops his guard so much cuz Sansa ropes him into thinking shes a really stupid little girl and empty headed and going along with his crap, only to have him fall for the hoist by his own petard. Which wouldnt be cheesy at all but a nice "neeeneeer" moment. In Soviet Westeros, Sansa kicks YOU!

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The idea that LF would be that stupid to let himself be poisoned by the same thing he used in a murder is really cheesy.

He doesn't know she has the hairnet. She was meant to leave it with the clothing when she changed in the Godswood.

It may still come into play in the books. If she is going to poison LF in the show, they will just create a filler scene to explain how she gets more poison.

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I just cannot imagine Sansa killing anyone. Now, that would be a character departure as far as the movie goes.

She was about to throw Joffrey off the battlements in AGOT/Season 1, so I disagree.

Ooh, I've missed out on this Sansa poisoning LF theory.

I wasn't under the impression she really hated him that much. He did save her life and is teaching her a lot about how to survive. She is developing under his tutelage into an interesting character.

I haven't really been made to dislike him enough to want him dead. He hasn't done anything that has really been disastrous for the realm, unlike most every other character.

Sansa doesn't hate him. Future events and revelations might make her hate her but, even if it doesn't happen, LF's continued existence will be detrimental for Sansa. She might graduate from "Littlefinger's Courtly Intrigue Academy" by murdering him not out of spite but out of cold blooded convenience.

Hasn't he? Egging on this conflagration? And how do you think Sansa will react once she learns of LF's role in betraying her father?

I'm torn about her future. She's one of the few characters who maintains her moral center throughout the series. Whatever happens to her, she stays good. I know people think she becomes interesting learning from LF but I honestly worry for her.

Arya's already slipping. LF's tutelage shouldn't do that to Sansa, I hope.

Arya is beyond slipping by now. As for Sansa becoming darker, I can only hope.

That's great then, since "height = command" is absolute nonsense. People don't have power because they're tall - except in schoolyard or, somewhat, in battle - but because they have social and political power. (Not that Sansa is likely to even be physically stronger than men who are around her height.) The Hound is huge and intimidating, and for almost all of the first 2 seasons was being ordered around by Joffrey. Same thing with every other KG member and everyone else. It's not like Joffrey had power because he was physically imposing. Tyrion is a dwarf and shorter than all of the adults we've seen him with, but being a Lannister gave him considerable power over everyone but the members of his family, and when he was the Hand of the King, he was equally powerful as Cersei and Joffrey (also not incredibly big or muscular people) and was the only one who was able to stop Joffrey's abuse of Sansa sometimes, since he was only one of the two people in KL who could stop Joffrey and not expect to get punished for it (and the other one, Cersei, didn't care to do that).

Even the Mountain does what Tywin orders him to do.

Height=command is nonsense in real life. In movies, height and camera angles tend to refer to the character's power. If you want, you can check Tyrion' power wielding scenes. You will probably notice that the camera is either at his height or at an angle parallel to the ground instead of being at the height of a normal person and aiming at Tyrion looking down at him.

Now, you can continue to argue "but in real life", but you would be arguing against well established photography and movie theory.

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