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Aiden Gillen and the Butchery of Littlefinger (Book Spoilers)


Mr Smith

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Although I have to admit that some of the lines of the private conversations between Varys and Littlefinger are not bad, the overall setting of these conversations portray both out of character:



Littlefinger would - under no circumstances whatsoever - drop his mask when he talks to Varys. He has told Alayne in AFfC that it is especially important to remain in character when you are alone, because you can't know who's listening/about to come in. Even if Littlefinger suspected/was quite sure that Varys sees him for the person he really is - and that's very likely - he would under no circumstances help Varys deducing what he is up to by admitting that Varys assumptions/assessments of him are correct.



There would be subtext in their conversations, but it would be very subtle, perhaps subtler than anything GRRM has written so far, because these characters are truly master players.



And, in my opinion, their weird portrayal as rivals - or political manipulators who strife to create chaos (Littlefinger) and order (Varys) - makes little sense to me. They are not rivals, they are just colleagues who work together when they need to, and are at odds with each other from time to time as well, but they don't try to thwart each other's goals. Littlefinger has no clue about the Aegon plan, and when Littlefinger prevented Varys from creating an uncertain peace after Robert's death, he did not do this to thwart Varys, but to continue his rise to power. In the long run, Littlefinger's meddling with Varys' plans in AGoT has turned out to his advantage, and I guess he would even be thankful for that.



Finally, I'd like to say that Gillen is a very good cast for Littlefinger. It's clearly not his acting that's the problem here, it's his lines, and the overall interpretation of the characters by the writers that's the problem. Besides from the height, Gillen is pretty much a perfect Littlefinger as far as the looks are concerned.


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Although I have to admit that some of the lines of the private conversations between Varys and Littlefinger are not bad, the overall setting of these conversations portray both out of character:

Littlefinger would - under no circumstances whatsoever - drop his mask when he talks to Varys. He has told Alayne in AFfC that it is especially important to remain in character when you are alone, because you can't know who's listening/about to come in. Even if Littlefinger suspected/was quite sure that Varys sees him for the person he really is - and that's very likely - he would under no circumstances help Varys deducing what he is up to by admitting that Varys assumptions/assessments of him are correct.

There would be subtext in their conversations, but it would be very subtle, perhaps subtler than anything GRRM has written so far, because these characters are truly master players.

And, in my opinion, their weird portrayal as rivals - or political manipulators who strife to create chaos (Littlefinger) and order (Varys) - makes little sense to me. They are not rivals, they are just colleagues who work together when they need to, and are at odds with each other from time to time as well, but they don't try to thwart each other's goals. Littlefinger has no clue about the Aegon plan, and when Littlefinger prevented Varys from creating an uncertain peace after Robert's death, he did not do this to thwart Varys, but to continue his rise to power. In the long run, Littlefinger's meddling with Varys' plans in AGoT has turned out to his advantage, and I guess he would even be thankful for that.

Finally, I'd like to say that Gillen is a very good cast for Littlefinger. It's clearly not his acting that's the problem here, it's his lines, and the overall interpretation of the characters by the writers that's the problem. Besides from the height, Gillen is pretty much a perfect Littlefinger as far as the looks are concerned.

His "Chaos is a ladder" speech was awesome though.

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Not really. The cutting was bad, in my opinion. It would have worked much better if we had seen him delivering the lines than cut to Sansa, and hear the words offscreen.



And then there is the fact that a man like Littlefinger would never brag in such a way about his accomplishments. He doesn't do that. The scriptwriters treat the audience like children in scenes like that. We should be able to deduce the fact that Littlefinger sees chaos as a ladder from the way he acts. He does not have to say this to us. Film is a visual medium. Show us what's happening, don't talk about it!



It would also have made much more impact if such a realization came to another character investigating Littlefinger (Tyrion, or Sansa, later on), rather than that the murderer explains us what he did and how he did it with the murder weapon still in his bloody hands...


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As English is not my native language, GoT is just a chaos of accents for me, and I'm not even trying to make sense of them. What did slowly start to annoy me is LF's descent into low raspy voice since season 2.


I guess it must be a new vogue for actors who want to sound intense. But I find it annoying for Batman, and even more for Littlefinger.


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I've never liked the relationship between the show, the Littlefinger character and Aiden Gillen.


In the first season they were given LF way too much time onscreen.


He became the go-to guy for exposition, which I saw as having the show being actor-driven rather than plot or script driven.


Varys would have been a better person to give the 'panoptic' all-knowing explanations and histories, IMO.



Gillen was one of the few well-known (in America) actors in the cast due to his role as Baltimore's mayor in "The Wire," so they were trying to come across as 'big time' to that audience - which I don't think was that necessary.



(I know, I know - Sean Bean was THE well-known actor in the first series. For all the good it did Ned Stark) ;)


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And then there is the fact that a man like Littlefinger would never brag in such a way about his accomplishments. He doesn't do that. The scriptwriters treat the audience like children in scenes like that. We should be able to deduce the fact that Littlefinger sees chaos as a ladder from the way he acts. He does not have to say this to us. Film is a visual medium. Show us what's happening, don't talk about it!

But he does brag doesn't he? He's always showing off to Sansa about his plans and how powerful he is. And didn't he show off to Ned and Tyrion about how he was playing everyone in KL?

I think a lot of the criticisms of show LF are also applicable to book LF. He's every bit as much of a creepy cartoon villain in the books as in the show. I think the show and book LF are incredibly similar, it's just that when you actually see someone acting that part it can seem a bit ridiculous. But on the whole I think D+D have done a good job with LF.

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tbh, I think LF is cartoonish IN books. And even though I like him, there are moments when he's so insufferable to read because he's so full of himself. In his last scene of Feast, when he's telling Sansa about his plans, it's like the villain monologuing before he gets killed.

Now I think about it, he reminds me of Fiona in Josie and the Pussycats, the movie (yeah, I've seen the movie...). Fiona sets up a humongous plan involving the government, the FBI, the police, Hollywood and the music industry, even trying to kill two of the Pussycats and brainwashing Josie, with the only purpose of broadcasting a subliminal message during a massive pay-per-view concert that orders people to think she's cool because she was unpopular in High School.

Josie and the Pussycats is the best movie ever!

Hey, how about a spoiler alert next time??

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On Cersei - I have seen one argument about some of her changes that has some merit. Show Joff is older than Book Joff. GRRM has said that he felt Joff was still a young boy and was not necessarily irredeemable - he was a bit of a shit that had been misguided and also had way too much power. The argument goes that because show Joff was older, it made sense to make him irredeemable and they did that by giving him some of the heinous actions instead of Cersei, like the killing of the bastards. Making Cersei softer does not appear to have caused anyone to like her more so if this argument reflects what they were aiming for, then it has some merit.

It depends where you go- I've been to a couple of feminist blogs and they all love Cersei. One even went so far as to say that the show improved on what was a sexist character in the book. Now, I love Lena Headey's portrayal and overall, I'm glad Cersei was depicted as relatively nicer than her book counterpart but it does create a bit of confusion at times. I remember watching an interview with GRRM and the interviewer flat out said that she loved Cersei's character. George agreed and mentioned that Cersei was a lot more sympathetic in the show, and add Lena's talent it was almost guaranteed a lot of viewers would get to like the character...but he also said something along the lines of the portrayal being a bit different in a way that was significant. The interviewer replied to that by saying 'but Cersei loves her children'

Now the thing is that show Cersei certainly loves all her children. In book Cersei's case it's a bit more ambiguous- she favors Joff but her feelings towards Myrcella and Tommen I'm not so sure about. I can't remember the chapters clearly but there were these parts where she was shown to be comparing Tommen unfavorably to Joff and for her, Joffrey was the ideal king because he was 'stronger' and not timid (kind hearted) like his younger brother. In the show, she's guilty because of how he turned out and even thinks it's a result of her 'sin with Jaime.'

Also, I'm going to have to disagree with GRRM on Joff- I don't think he's redeemable either version.

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I think it's not terribly unfair to let the audience know he isn't really trustworthy even via other characters, who still trust him somewhat as far as the books go. Tyrells, Starks, and Lannisters trusted him as long as they thought they had bought him, which matches the books. He's from a lesser house which makes them less wary.

I like the Irish accent which I choose to interpret as LF being more himself with his Fingers accent, not the courtly dialect he has to use n king's business. Because I like the Irish accent. I think they should have dressed him better as in the books.

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Also, I'm going to have to disagree with GRRM on Joff- I don't think he's redeemable either version.

ShowJoffrey is smart: he accurately warned Tywin about the dragons but he didn't listened because he was in the mood to shut him down for trying to overpower him. ShowJoffrey also is a bit more interested in history than bookJoffrey.

Anyway, about Cersei, my problem with the show version is that now is easier for the audience to justify any of her actions. Anything she might do against Jaime now will be excused because he "raped her". I know it happens in book, when Cersei herself uses the fact that she has been married to Robert and dismissed as an heir of Tywin to "claim" herself as the Queen because she thinks her time has come. We readers know she's wrong because first, she's not the only "victim" of that society but there are women who have managed to make the best of their situations without actually sleeping around to get what they wanted. And they are better prepared to rule. Even Cat herself proved that her advice was useful, despite her honest mistakes. Cersei is not in any way a feminist icon because not only she thinks everybody dismiss her for being a woman (Tywin himself told her that wasn't the reason in the show) but because everything she has now is product of her name and her marriage, not her own value.

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Also, I'm going to have to disagree with GRRM on Joff- I don't think he's redeemable either version.

I agree with that completely. There was an instance where Joff wanted to launch raids against the lords of the Riverlands who had bent the knee after the RW and Tywin over ruled him saying "When a man falls to his knee you must help him to his feet." - but it was clear the message hadn't made its way through. I think GRRM says it because he loves all his characters and in his own mind had ways mud-mapped out for some kind of redemption. I am glad that didn't happen though.

I actually like the portrayal of Cersei in the show too..... well, not 'like', but appreciate the character more. Book C is written from the PoV's of Sansa and Tyrion to this point and so necessarily display her as more one-dimensionally evil.

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Didn't GRRM once say on his LJ, that he based/his Littlefinger has a lot in common with Jay Gatsby, whilst the show creation was another matter entirely?

Yes he did!

He was talking about the 2013 Gatsby and someone wrote a comment suggesting that Littlefinger is similar to Gatsby.

GRRM confirmed the similarities between Gatsby and book LF, but he stated that TV LF is quite different.

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