[Book spoilers] On Tywin and dragons

[Pod The Impaler]

One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

(But for some reason, Dany does not have the same level of information about what's happening in Westeros. So far, all she's heard is "by the way King Robert the Usurper is dead - only because Barristan sailed all the way to Qarth to tell her.)

In the books, the lords of Westeros are dismissive of what is apparently happening way over there, in part because they're too focused on what their own immediate concerns, but in part because you simply cannot confirm any of it as truthful unless you start to hear many accounts of an event that all sound the same. It's not like people have news networks - by the time you hear anything about events far away, it is indistinguishable from rumours and tall tales.

In the show, they are getting information that is too solid and too soon. Did HBO think they had to dumb things down for the Twitter-generation audience, who wouldn't understand a world where communication across long distances is nearly non-existent ? Now they've established that Tywin Lannister has heard some truly game-changing, forget-everything-else information. And inexplicably, Tywin decides to casually tell this information to the one person who'd be most pleased to hear that House Lannister will burn in dragonfire, as a sales pitch for an alliance.

I hope this is written as some sort of feint to test whether Oberyn knows this already and is disloyal, because otherwise ... :dunce:

[Emperoreddy]

One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

(But for some reason, Dany does not have the same level of information about what's happening in Westeros. So far, all she's heard is "by the way King Robert the Usurper is dead - only because Barristan sailed all the way to Qarth to tell her.)

In the books, the lords of Westeros are dismissive of what is apparently happening way over there, in part because they're too focused on what their own immediate concerns, but in part because you simply cannot confirm any of it as truthful unless you start to hear many accounts of an event that all sound the same. It's not like people have news networks - by the time you hear anything about events far away, it is indistinguishable from rumours and tall tales.

In the show, they are getting information that is too solid and too soon. Did HBO think they had to dumb things down for the Twitter-generation audience, who wouldn't understand a world where communication across long distances is nearly non-existent ? Now they've established that Tywin Lannister has heard some truly game-changing, forget-everything-else information. And inexplicably, Tywin decides to casually tell this information to the one person who'd be most pleased to hear that House Lannister will burn in dragonfire, as a sales pitch for an alliance.

I hope this is written as some sort of feint to test whether Oberyn knows this already and is disloyal, because otherwise ... :dunce:

Show Dany is aware of the war of five kings in season 2. IT was part of the rift between her and Jorah. His advice was for her to get a boat and sail right away to Westoros and rally the lords there to her cause, where she wanted to use Qarth. Season goes on, they plunder it and she goes to buy the Unsullied for her army, but gets distracted in her free the slaves campaign.

Tywin I think is just playing it up and doesn't really believe that its a real threat. My clue is he mentions the Grey Joys rebellion in the same breath and Dany and the Wildlings. From what we gathered from Roose last week Tywin isn't to concerned with taking care of the Grey Joys or actually helping Roose take the north, which leads me to believe that he doesn't really see Dany or the Wildlings as a threat either. He is just being coy trying to play Oberyn. For what purpose exactly I am not sure.

[The Reckoner]

Roose is his Warden of the North. They're his problem.

[sifth]

Roose is his Warden of the North. They're his problem.

And when/if Roose fails, who's problem will they become.

[Waylin Stark]

One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

True, and also I find it hard to believe that if in the show, Tywin was aware of Dany's dragons, he didn't do anything about it other than use her as an excuse to win over Oberyn. This is the man who ended the Targ line for Robert, you'd think he'd be a tad more concerned about Dany.

Maybe Tywin does believe it, but dismisses them thinking she won't be here anytime soon because her dragons are young.

[Stannisneverlikedcats]

One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

(But for some reason, Dany does not have the same level of information about what's happening in Westeros. So far, all she's heard is "by the way King Robert the Usurper is dead - only because Barristan sailed all the way to Qarth to tell her.)

In the show, xaro xhoan daxos was the one who first informed her about Robert's death back in season two. Barristan just repeats it again later on. So it works both ways. Except Dany doesn't have her own master of whispers to keep her updated.

[Darth Pipes]

In the book, Tywin doesn't give a damn about the Wildling threat. I think he just threw in that bit and about Dany to get Oberyn to bring Dorne back in the fold.

[Emperoreddy]

In the show, xaro xhoan daxos was the one who first informed her about Robert's death back in season two. Barristan just repeats it again later on. So it works both ways. Except Dany doesn't have her own master of whispers to keep her updated.

Yepp, he tells her, and then she tells Jorah later and also mentions the war of five kings (belive she mentions the country is at war), and expresses her desire to press her claim and considers Xaro's offer to get it done quickly, while Jorah wants them to get a boat and just go back and get the houses on her side. Jorah also only thinks its a rumor Xaro made up to rile her up.

Ya then Barristan confirms it again for them.

[Good Guy Garlan]

This is scene would be fine if they hadn't made Tywin dismiss the threat of the dragons last season. As such, it comes off as inconsistent (yeah, I could fanwank it and say that he probably heard the dragons are getting bigger, but it's still clumsy)

One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

(But for some reason, Dany does not have the same level of information about what's happening in Westeros. So far, all she's heard is "by the way King Robert the Usurper is dead - only because Barristan sailed all the way to Qarth to tell her.)

In the books, the lords of Westeros are dismissive of what is apparently happening way over there, in part because they're too focused on what their own immediate concerns, but in part because you simply cannot confirm any of it as truthful unless you start to hear many accounts of an event that all sound the same. It's not like people have news networks - by the time you hear anything about events far away, it is indistinguishable from rumours and tall tales.

In the show, they are getting information that is too solid and too soon. Did HBO think they had to dumb things down for the Twitter-generation audience, who wouldn't understand a world where communication across long distances is nearly non-existent ? Now they've established that Tywin Lannister has heard some truly game-changing, forget-everything-else information. And inexplicably, Tywin decides to casually tell this information to the one person who'd be most pleased to hear that House Lannister will burn in dragonfire, as a sales pitch for an alliance.

I hope this is written as some sort of feint to test whether Oberyn knows this already and is disloyal, because otherwise ... :dunce:

:agree:

I always love when people in Westeros handwave the threat of the dragons or the Wall in the books. It's like that moment in the Dark Knight when the judge finds the joker card among her documents and just sets it aside, not knowing the whole shitstorm that's about to start

[Cyberia]

I wonder... did Bran's vision come true already?

Bran saw the shadow of a dragon over King's Landing, and everyone assumed it meant the dragons themselves coming there. But what if it just meant the shadow of the dragon came to the city, as in the threat of the dragons? Because in the very next episode after the vision, Tywin indicates the threat they pose.

[aFeastForDragons]

And when/if Roose fails, who's problem will they become.

Tywin said he could make peace with Mance Raydar in the books.

[Lord Varys]

Read the books, guys!

In the books, an important point of the story is that Lord Tywin never learned that Daenerys Stormborn was alive and had hatched herself three dragons. Those news only arrive in KL at the very end of ADwD when Ser Kevan, Mace Tyrell, and Grand Maester Pycelle discuss Dany opposed to Aegon.

In the big council scene in ASoS Varys tells the council about a three-headed dragon that has hatched in Qarth, putting it in context of the sightings of huge krakens. Tywin doesn't know that this has anything to do with Daenerys Targaryen. If had known, he would have taken that thing very seriously, not only because his family had killed three members of House Targaryen (opposed to Robert's one), but because Tywin himself was familiar with the history of House Targaryen.

Varys succeeded in taking out Tywin before he ever learned what was coming his way.

Show Tywin acts dumb in this whole thing if you ask me. First he does not take the dragon seriously at all (season 3), and then he wants the Martells to ally with him against Daenerys? Does he not know that Oberyn wanted Dorne to declare for Viserys? He can't know anything about the secret marriage pact, but he must know that telling the Martells about Dany and her dragons would not exactly motivate them to ally with the Lannisters...

In fact, Tywin's whole policy towards Dorne would have changed if he had known about Dany and her dragons. He would have realized that the Dornishmen would use this opportunity to ally with the Targaryen queen.

[neutrino]

Read the books, guys!

In the books, an important point of the story is that Lord Tywin never learned that Daenerys Stormborn was alive and had hatched herself three dragons. Those news only arrive in KL at the very end of ADwD when Ser Kevan, Mace Tyrell, and Grand Maester Pycelle discuss Dany opposed to Aegon.

In the big council scene in ASoS Varys tells the council about a three-headed dragon that has hatched in Qarth, putting it in context of the sightings of huge krakens. Tywin doesn't know that this has anything to do with Daenerys Targaryen. If had known, he would have taken that thing very seriously, not only because his family had killed three members of House Targaryen (opposed to Robert's one), but because Tywin himself was familiar with the history of House Targaryen.

Varys succeeded in taking out Tywin before he ever learned what was coming his way.

Show Tywin acts dumb in this whole thing if you ask me. First he does not take the dragon seriously at all (season 3), and then he wants the Martells to ally with him against Daenerys? Does he not know that Oberyn wanted Dorne to declare for Viserys? He can't know anything about the secret marriage pact, but he must know that telling the Martells about Dany and her dragons would not exactly motivate them to ally with the Lannisters...

In fact, Tywin's whole policy towards Dorne would have changed if he had known about Dany and her dragons. He would have realized that the Dornishmen would use this opportunity to ally with the Targaryen queen.

Read the books, guys!

In the books, an important point of the story is that Lord Tywin never learned that Daenerys Stormborn was alive and had hatched herself three dragons. Those news only arrive in KL at the very end of ADwD when Ser Kevan, Mace Tyrell, and Grand Maester Pycelle discuss Dany opposed to Aegon.

In the big council scene in ASoS Varys tells the council about a three-headed dragon that has hatched in Qarth, putting it in context of the sightings of huge krakens. Tywin doesn't know that this has anything to do with Daenerys Targaryen. If had known, he would have taken that thing very seriously, not only because his family had killed three members of House Targaryen (opposed to Robert's one), but because Tywin himself was familiar with the history of House Targaryen.

Varys succeeded in taking out Tywin before he ever learned what was coming his way.

Show Tywin acts dumb in this whole thing if you ask me. First he does not take the dragon seriously at all (season 3), and then he wants the Martells to ally with him against Daenerys? Does he not know that Oberyn wanted Dorne to declare for Viserys? He can't know anything about the secret marriage pact, but he must know that telling the Martells about Dany and her dragons would not exactly motivate them to ally with the Lannisters...

In fact, Tywin's whole policy towards Dorne would have changed if he had known about Dany and her dragons. He would have realized that the Dornishmen would use this opportunity to ally with the Targaryen queen.

You guys are looking at the cards and not the player. When Joffrey raised the dragons Tywin shut it down because he was already aware and did not need a 15 year old back seat driving his kingdom so he put him in his place. Watching that scene when you see him step up to the throne and tower over Joffrey it is clear his only goal is to remind him that Tywin is the one with the power, and is not subject to Joffreys inquisition. By dismissing the dragons he is dismissing Joffrey.

When speaking to Oberyn the conversation began as a probe into his complicity with poisoning Joffrey, and then turned to Oberyn joining the small council and becoming a part of the fold and decision making. He threw out some basic information to bring Oberyn closer but nothing the world was not already talking about. This achieves two things, it allows him a closer look at a man he considers his enemy (oberyn) who may have poisoned his grandson and also begins a possible alliance which would come at the cost of gregor clegianes head but yield an entire army of Dornish.

in both cases he has been using the information at hand to position the person in front of him the way he wants them. He wanted Joffrey to shut up and let him handle the grown up matters, and he wanted Oberyn to feel closer to the fold so he could watch him more closely. Neither conversation would be a true reflection of his opinion of the actual dragons and whether or not he considers them to be serious threats.

[Lord Varys]

Well, the bad writing is in both scenes evident. Who the hell would have told Joff about Dany and the dragons? Varys? Not likely. But then, the bad writing started in season 2, when Varys told Tyrion about Dany and her dragons in Qarth.

Joff asking Tywin about Dany and her dragons is bad in itself, not the fact that Tywin is then using this sort of thing to put Joff back into his place. I never got what that was about, anyway. Joff is the king, and Tywin's grandson. He should try to teach him how to rule, not try to take power away from him. Tywin is an old man, he won't be there forever. And if does not teach Joff how to cling to power, everything he has accomplished will be lost in the very moment Tywin dies.

And, honestly, I'm not sure TV Tywin is considering Dany a huge threat. He dismisses the size of the dragons in the same manner Jorah questioned the very existence of the dragons back in season 1. There's a pattern there. And this pattern does not portray the characters as very smart guys. As of yet, Tywin has done nothing to get rid of Daenerys, and book Tywin would have hired professional assassins (most likely Faceless Men) the very moment he learned of the existence of Dany and her dragons. GRRM knows as much, because he made House Lannister the richest family in Westeros. It would be madness/suicide for the Lannisters to not assassinate Dany while she is still half a world a way, or to inform their enemies (i.e. the Martells) of her existence to enable them to join forces with her. If Tywin allows Dany to come close to Westeros, the support for 'King Joffrey/Tommen' will diminish and disappear.

[Maia]

As of yet, Tywin has done nothing to get rid of Daenerys, and book Tywin would have hired professional assassins (most likely Faceless Men) the very moment he learned of the existence of Dany and her dragons..

Agreed, except for the fact that Tywin would/could never hire the Faceless Men. Their fee is 3/4 of everything you own, after all, and it would be the end of House Lannister. But certainly, he would have sent skilled assassins after Dany and the dragons, both.

Re: show Joff, yea. It seems that unlike in the books, Tywin never had an intention to try educating him. Which, coupled with the lack of kinslaying taboo in the show, makes him look a likely suspect in Joff's poisoning.

And naming Dany and her dragons as a reason for the Martells to ally with the Lannisters sounds downright stupid, IMHO, no matter how they play up Dornish bitterness re: Rhaegar's behaviour in the show. And yet, we are clearly supposed to see this move as a clever manipulation on Tywin's part. Hm...

[Arkash]

It was said before but just throwing my thoughts here :

Okay, so in the book, we never really know how Tywin considers the rumors in the East, but I think it's a nice move from the show (after much inner debate) to have Tywin considering it aloud.

First, it makes him look competent and will show an incapable Cersei more efficiently next season.

Two, it was one of the only way to throw some Dornish history in the show ! And come on, who doesnt want as much as possible about Dornish History ?

It proves it's a really important kingdom, and the Martell as a really great family of Westeros.

I allows the show not to deal with all the sailors rumors and stories. Shortcuts.

And last but not least : it gives some great credit to the dialogue with Oberyn, which I really loved !

[Lord Varys]

I'd be very surprised if the Faceless Men did indeed fee always 3/4 of everything you own. That would be a rather costly assassin guild working model. It seems as if a good deal of their contracts is revenge stuff - woman who was wronged by the insurance guy, father of the Waif -, but I'd be very surprised if that was all of it. It's very likely that they set individual fees, and have also a contingent of assassinations for really rich customers, especially if they are somehow connected to the Iron Bank.

And Dornish history could have been mentioned in a thousand other ways. Say, by discussing Dornish history with Oberyn/other characters, not a possible alliance against Daenerys Targaryen. By mentioning the special role and status Dorne always had. By mentioning that Myrcella and Tommen should succeed Joffrey due to Dornish law. And so on.

The show really sucks at portraying size, distance, and the passing of time. Not to speak of the subtleties of politics and council conversations.

[Red Tiger]

I'd be very surprised if the Faceless Men did indeed fee always 3/4 of everything you own. That would be a rather costly assassin guild working model. It seems as if a good deal of their contracts is revenge stuff - woman who was wronged by the insurance guy, father of the Waif -, but I'd be very surprised if that was all of it. It's very likely that they set individual fees, and have also a contingent of assassinations for really rich customers, especially if they are somehow connected to the Iron Bank.

And Dornish history could have been mentioned in a thousand other ways. Say, by discussing Dornish history with Oberyn/other characters, not a possible alliance against Daenerys Targaryen. By mentioning the special role and status Dorne always had. By mentioning that Myrcella and Tommen should succeed Joffrey due to Dornish law. And so on.

The show really sucks at portraying size, distance, and the passing of time. Not to speak of the subtleties of politics and council conversations.

The faceless man charging rate depends on the target. Taking out a princess or any person of real power apparently costs as much as raising an army. Considering Danaerys is a queen with a monstrous army, control of a city and dragons, it would probably take all of the gold of Casterly Rock and Highgarden combined.

Ironically if they had put the hit on Danaerys in season 1 it would have probably been quite affordable. LF had a point.

[Titan]

Read the books, guys!

In the books, an important point of the story is that Lord Tywin never learned that Daenerys Stormborn was alive and had hatched herself three dragons. Those news only arrive in KL at the very end of ADwD when Ser Kevan, Mace Tyrell, and Grand Maester Pycelle discuss Dany opposed to Aegon.

So what? It is necessary for the TV show - where any linkage between the Westeros and Essos stories are helpful. Otherwise it seems like two separate shows packaged as one. Increased awareness of what is happening in Essos is a GOOD change for the TV format.

[Maia]

It's very likely that they set individual fees, and have also a contingent of assassinations for really rich customers, especially if they are somehow connected to the Iron Bank..

Personally, I find it extremely unlikely, or the Faceless Men would have been used far more widely in power struggles, etc. The explanation of their fee being 3/4 of all customer's posessions sensibly restricts the use of the Faceless Men by the sitting rulers and pretenders, so that it is believable that they would still need wars, etc.

And if they work for IB, why would IB need to give Stannis an unlimited credit? They'd just have to kill Tommen and/or a few other Lannisters - much cheaper.

Oh, and if Tywin could have afforded a FM, I am sure that Aerys would have died sooner than he did and much more discreetly.