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[Book spoilers] On Tywin and dragons


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I don't think that such a connection is necessary for the TV show. Or rather, that a connection that's more in accordance with the books would have been better (i.e. Varys actively disinforming/downplaying events in Essos), or perhaps another secret meeting with Varys and Illyrio under the Red Keep where they discussed Selmy's journey to Dany and/or the effects the birth of the dragons has for their plans.



Having people discuss Dany and her dragons avails to nothing, if they don't act on that. And they can't act on it, because the plot does not allow them to.



They could have easily made Joff's and Tywin's talk in season 3 about Stannis, not the dragons. Joff dismissing Stannis as a real threat - because he had broken him on the Blackwater - and then Tywin coming up his assessment of Stannis as their most serious rival contender.



On the Faceless Men/the Iron Bank:



If there is a connection between these two - and would be very surprised if that's not the case - then the game most likely goes like that. If a powerful customer of the Iron Bank fails to pay his due, the Iron Bank first strikes a deal with one of his rivals, ensuring that he'll give the Iron Bank its due. Afterwards, Faceless Men are employed to help take out the original client of the bank and/or to smoothen the way for the new claimant. It would make no sense to do this before an understanding is reached with the new claimant, if it's all about money.



I'm also inclined to believe that the House of Black and White is a major shareholder/the owner of the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank would not have the reputation it has if it has no secret weapon other major banks lack. And it has been established that the banks of the other Free Cities cannot be compared to the Iron Bank in that capacity.


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One criticism of the show which I have is that the Westerosi players (Varys, LF, Tywin, etc.) are entirely too well-informed about what is happening on the other side of the world.

(But for some reason, Dany does not have the same level of information about what's happening in Westeros. So far, all she's heard is "by the way King Robert the Usurper is dead - only because Barristan sailed all the way to Qarth to tell her.)

In the books, the lords of Westeros are dismissive of what is apparently happening way over there, in part because they're too focused on what their own immediate concerns, but in part because you simply cannot confirm any of it as truthful unless you start to hear many accounts of an event that all sound the same. It's not like people have news networks - by the time you hear anything about events far away, it is indistinguishable from rumours and tall tales.

In the show, they are getting information that is too solid and too soon. Did HBO think they had to dumb things down for the Twitter-generation audience, who wouldn't understand a world where communication across long distances is nearly non-existent ? Now they've established that Tywin Lannister has heard some truly game-changing, forget-everything-else information. And inexplicably, Tywin decides to casually tell this information to the one person who'd be most pleased to hear that House Lannister will burn in dragonfire, as a sales pitch for an alliance.

I hope this is written as some sort of feint to test whether Oberyn knows this already and is disloyal, because otherwise ... :dunce:

News about a girl conquering cities with an animal who hasn't been around for hundreds of years would take huge precedence and travel a lot quicker than news of Westerosi lords squabbling as usual. The Essos clique could probably care less who's backstabbing who at this point.

Not to mention, if the primary means of communication between cities and ports are ravens/sailors(word of mouth) it's not like Dany has access to this as readily as any other party. They're basically raiders wandering the desert.

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True, and also I find it hard to believe that if in the show, Tywin was aware of Dany's dragons, he didn't do anything about it other than use her as an excuse to win over Oberyn. This is the man who ended the Targ line for Robert, you'd think he'd be a tad more concerned about Dany.

Maybe Tywin does believe it, but dismisses them thinking she won't be here anytime soon because her dragons are young.

The matter is pretty simple: Dorn was offered a council seat by Tyrion in the books, as far as i can remember this didnt happen in the show, which is good cause it would have confused the audience. Now where the audience knows the character they just had to make things up.

I see Tywin (book & show) as a practical man, he deals with problems when they have to be dealt with. There's nothing Tywin Lannister isnt aware of; Wildlings, Others, Dragons - all at their due time.

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Yeah, why would show Tywin think telling Oberyn about Dany would convince him to join up with the Lannisters? "Hey so I know you're still upset that we killed Elia but her sister-in-law has dragons so... Join us!"

Pretty much word for word what I said when I saw that scene. Its an epic example of Tywin being really dumb, as far as I'm concerned.

Dorne was the kingdom most loyal to the Targaryens, and Robert only kept them in the fold through constant diplomatic work by Jon Arryn. This isn't explicitly mentioned in the show, I think, but its alluded to. Then, throw in the fact that Oberyn's sister was married to Dany's brother. These are just the facts that Tywin *would* know for certain.

He wouldn't necessarily know that Oberyn's niece was betrothed to Viserys. He wouldn't know that Oberyn's nephew is going on a journey to marry Dany. But he would know that neither of them were betrothed to anyone else, despite being two of the most eligible heirs on the entire continent. That, alone, would inspire some speculation as to what the Martells were planning with their first and second in line to the Dornish throne. Throw in that surely, Tywin must be at least somewhat aware that Doran is, himself, not exactly an unaccomplished schemer.

So, throw all that together, and Tywin somehow comes up with portraying Dany as a threat to someone who would likely be one of her most ardent supporters, just based on the known information.

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Pretty much word for word what I said when I saw that scene. Its an epic example of Tywin being really dumb, as far as I'm concerned.

Dorne was the kingdom most loyal to the Targaryens, and Robert only kept them in the fold through constant diplomatic work by Jon Arryn. This isn't explicitly mentioned in the show, I think, but its alluded to. Then, throw in the fact that Oberyn's sister was married to Dany's brother. These are just the facts that Tywin *would* know for certain.

He wouldn't necessarily know that Oberyn's niece was betrothed to Viserys. He wouldn't know that Oberyn's nephew is going on a journey to marry Dany. But he would know that neither of them were betrothed to anyone else, despite being two of the most eligible heirs on the entire continent. That, alone, would inspire some speculation as to what the Martells were planning with their first and second in line to the Dornish throne. Throw in that surely, Tywin must be at least somewhat aware that Doran is, himself, not exactly an unaccomplished schemer.

So, throw all that together, and Tywin somehow comes up with portraying Dany as a threat to someone who would likely be one of her most ardent supporters, just based on the known information.

You just reminded me of Doran describing himself in AFFC as the grass on which no one fears to tread, even though this same grass conceals the viper. I had never considered how odd it must look to outsiders than neither Arianne and Quentyn are betrothed or married, especially now that their younger brother is betrothed to Myrcella!

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You just reminded me of Doran describing himself in AFFC as the grass on which no one fears to tread, even though this same grass conceals the viper. I had never considered how odd it must look to outsiders than neither Arianne and Quentyn are betrothed or married, especially now that their younger brother is betrothed to Myrcella!

Thats exactly the quote that I had in mind when describing Doran. He's mild demeanor might fool some into think that he's weak, but I just can't see Tywin being that gullible, particularly when a fellow Lord Paramount is concerned.

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So show Tywin recruits Oberyn by telling him that the 7K need Dorne to fight against Dany's dragons because she is at their doorstep (for sure!).

Now, is hinted that book Oberyn actually signed the Arianne-Viserys marriage pact and that before Quentyn started his faithful trip to Meereen nobody took tales of dragons as something serious, so having a capable hand of the king that is aware of Targaryen Dragons is not something on Oberyn's best interests.

Varys kept telling the small council that his little birds heard tales of dragons in slaver's bay, together with crakens sinking ships by the isle of nuncles and a conflict between the Snarks and Wabberjockies, so enough to claim that he informed the council but not framed to be taken seriously.

The issue here is that I don't remember any hint of book Tywin taking the dragon threat seriously. So what is show Tywin planning on doing with the impending dragon invasion? Dornish-style guerilla warfare?, that would hardly result in his golden grandson keeping his crown.

The scenario I'll like to discuss is what can Tywin realistically do to keep Dany away from Westeros?

He could give the slavers money for sellsword companies, or hire sellsword companies and keep them in Dorne. Given the later events in ASoS, this shouldn't matter. I think the show is tossing us a red herring.

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Thats exactly the quote that I had in mind when describing Doran. He's mild demeanor might fool some into think that he's weak, but I just can't see Tywin being that gullible, particularly when a fellow Lord Paramount is concerned.

Indeed. I am quite sad that we never see Oberyn in Dorne. When I re-read the scene where the Mountain kills him, it is still quite a kick in the teeth. :box:

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