[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[Moët]

Okay, I'm not having another day discussing what is and isn't rape. I think to say that people are calling it as such because they "lack the critical thinking skills" to examine actions and words is insulting and fallacious.

The OP's point is there's been tons of changes to the book material so why this? I think we should stick with that discussion.

Do you think Cersei's actions are those of a woman being raped? Just curious.

Being dismissive of what happened in the scene would seem counter-productive to the argument.

I think that what is and isn't rape is important to the OP's point, in that it was almost just like the book aside from them taking away her verbal "yes" while they gave her lots of "yes" action. To pretend Cersei wasn't actively reciprocating kissing Jamie is actively cherry-picking things that support your view.

People saw what they saw. Some people saw rape. Many did not, including the director and the actors involved. This is not a clear-cut anything, because while it's subjective, there are many things in play not just Cersei's words.

So yes, I too am amazed that people are outraged by this change, when it seems so insignificant in comparison, and it's full of different interpretations.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Why change it from the books? GRRM and others jumped into this stupid mess with their "change of circumstances, changed the scene". Which pretty much is the reason for all those changes that the OP said.

Trying to figure out why they changed it? Can I get an episode for them to explain the reason? Or do I have to speculate right now?

here goes...

Jaime and Cersei are going to have a "falling out/break up/split up/ whatever you want to call it" so we need to clearly see reasons for it. Jaime not bending to Cersei's will after they continue their dangerous affair... that seems like a good start.

[Chebyshov]

Do you think Cersei's actions are those of a woman being raped? Just curious.

Being dismissive of what happened in the scene would seem counter-productive to the argument.

I think that what is and isn't rape is important to the OP's point, in that it was almost just like the book aside from them taking away her verbal "yes" while they gave her lots of "yes" action. To pretend Cersei wasn't actively reciprocating kissing Jamie is actively cherry-picking things that support your view.

People saw what they saw. Some people saw rape. Many did not, including the director and the actors involved. This is not a clear-cut anything, because while it's subjective, there are many things in play not just Cersei's words.

So yes, I too am amazed that people are outraged by this change, when it seems so insignificant in comparison, and it's full of different interpretations.

I'm going to withhold any judgement call on how a woman should look and act while being raped. If a woman says "no" to sex for any reason, and yet the man continues to force himself on her, it is a rape. To say it's not because she "gets into it" is troubling. I'm in a minority that would call the book-scene "rape" as well, even if GRRM disagrees. But as a woman, I find drawing the line on what is and isn't rape very disturbing and upsetting. To have GRRM and Alex Graves say it wasn't because of Cersei giving in (either physically or verbally) has made this entire discussion worse.

I think your point of them taking away a verbal "yes" and changing it to one in her actions is a good one, even if it didn't really come across well (at least on the first view). You're right in that the two scenes aren't different. Whether or not we label it as "rape" is moot in the context of this thread, so I think to the point of the OP, that there shouldn't be the outrage over this scene that there is, we agree.

[Miss Carnahan]

I guess it's so shocking or whatever, because we know how much Jaime loves Cersei and how much he hated what Robert did to her. (+ We saw him defend Brienne when she was about to be raped). Let's also not forget that rape is a very touchy subject, which you shouldn't handle carelessly, even if it's "only" in a a medieval, fantasy world.

Also, I thought the scene was pretty bad, but what made it so disgusting for me, personally, was the reaction afterwards that it was meant to be seen as "consensual' (or at least at the end).

[flamingothegreen]

I'm going to withhold any judgement call on how a woman should look and act while being raped. If a woman says "no" to sex for any reason, and yet the man continues to force himself on her, it is a rape. To say it's not because she "gets into it" is troubling. I'm in a minority that would call the book-scene "rape" as well, even if GRRM disagrees. But as a woman, I find drawing the line on what is and isn't rape very disturbing and upsetting. To have GRRM and Alex Graves say it wasn't because of Cersei giving in (either physically or verbally) has made this entire discussion worse.

I think your point of them taking away a verbal "yes" and changing it to one in her actions is a good one, even if it didn't really come across well (at least on the first view). You're right in that the two scenes aren't different. Whether or not we label it as "rape" is moot in the context of this thread, so I think to the point of the OP, that there shouldn't be the outrage over this scene that there is, we agree.

I agree completely with you. No is no. Even if a person submits during the act, verbally or physically, it's still forced and the person still said no. I don't understand how anyone can argue that. :/

As for on topic part, I just don't think there should be a fuss regarding this particular scene. Jaime is still Jaime. There are issues with the show, but I don't think this is one of them as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

[Moët]

I'm going to withhold any judgement call on how a woman should look and act while being raped. If a woman says "no" to sex for any reason, and yet the man continues to force himself on her, it is a rape. To say it's not because she "gets into it" is troubling. I'm in a minority that would call the book-scene "rape" as well, even if GRRM disagrees. But as a woman, I find drawing the line on what is and isn't rape very disturbing and upsetting. To have GRRM and Alex Graves say it wasn't because of Cersei giving in (either physically or verbally) has made this entire discussion worse.

I think your point of them taking away a verbal "yes" and changing it to one in her actions is a good one, even if it didn't really come across well (at least on the first view). You're right in that the two scenes aren't different. Whether or not we label it as "rape" is moot in the context of this thread, so I think to the point of the OP, that there shouldn't be the outrage over this scene that there is, we agree.

I for one do NOT subscribe that if a woman wears a short skirt she is, "asking for it." I don't care if she runs down the street naked, screaming, "look at me I'm naked!" that isn't "asking to be raped."

However, having said that, if a woman is saying, "no" "stop" while she's forcibly pulling her "rapist" towards herself and passionately kissing him, I really have to make the judgement call that those actions matter.

Jamie's actions didn't happen in a vacuum, and I feel like a lot of people are acting as though they did, and that Cersei's actions had no baring on the scene because she said, "no." I find that baffling.

I feel what is and isn't rape, is at the center of this "controversy" and why so many people are upset.

I also think that it's important to take GRRM, D&D, Alex Graves, and Lena and Nic's comments into consideration because intent is important.

As a book reader, I wasn't expecting a rape, and what I saw wasn't a rape, since Cersei's actions were clear that it wasn't.

I saw a well-shot, complex scene between two very damaged, complex characters, that were totally in-character to what they've been set up to be.

What I didn't see was a rape involving two characters that didn't have any kind of history together, and (an incredibly strong-willed) woman fighting off her rapist.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

However, having said that, if a woman is saying, "no" "stop" while she's forcibly pulling her "rapist" towards herself and passionately kissing him, I really have to make the judgement call that those actions matter.

:dunce:

Whatever drugs you're on, stop taking them (or kindly share some with the rest of us).

[Moët]

:dunce:

Whatever drugs you're on, stop taking them (or kindly share some with the rest of us).

Or perhaps you should if you somehow missed that part of the scene. Go WATCH the scene. Don't just listen to it. Actions matter.

[Rhaegar The Rocker]

I for one do NOT subscribe that if a woman wears a short skirt she is, "asking for it." I don't care if she runs down the street naked, screaming, "look at me I'm naked!" that isn't "asking to be raped."

However, having said that, if a woman is saying, "no" "stop" while she's forcibly pulling her "rapist" towards herself and passionately kissing him, I really have to make the judgement call that those actions matter.

Jamie's actions didn't happen in a vacuum, and I feel like a lot of people are acting as though they did, and that Cersei's actions had no baring on the scene because she said, "no." I find that baffling.

I feel what is and isn't rape, is at the center of this "controversy" and why so many people are upset.

I also think that it's important to take GRRM, D&D, Alex Graves, and Lena and Nic's comments into consideration because intent is important.

As a book reader, I wasn't expecting a rape, and what I saw wasn't a rape, since Cersei's actions were clear that it wasn't.

I saw a well-shot, complex scene between two very damaged, complex characters, that were totally in-character to what they've been set up to be.

What I didn't see was a rape involving two characters that didn't have any kind of history together, and (an incredibly strong-willed) woman fighting off her rapist.

Its interesting that some read the book scene as rape. I did not. However, the show scene definitely had me thinking rape. Perhaps its my cultural bias that "no always means no." But I've also only watched it once. I need to re-watch it and really focus on Cersei's actions.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

As a book reader, I wasn't expecting a rape, and what I saw wasn't a rape, since Cersei's actions were clear that it wasn't.

Personaly I find this scene so clumsily made that I'm still not sure what happened.

Its interesting that some read the book scene as rape. I did not. However, the show scene definitely had me thinking rape. Perhaps its my cultural bias that "no always means no." But I've also only watched it once. I need to re-watch it and really focus on Cersei's actions.

Possibilities: a) Jaime's POV so twisted we get really unbelievable version of events in aSoS, b) TV-show scene was ment to be like in book, but they fucked it up, because they are no really good showrunners and scriptwriters to begin with...

[Aldi_AA]

All of you are biased cause you read the books and read the interviews read any unsullied post or ask any casual watcher they all think it was rape. Also people are upset because in the books there are at least 3 instance that show how Jaime is against rape and having him rape her was way out of character.

[Aldi_AA]

Possibilities: a) Jaime's POV so twisted we get really unbelievable version of events in aSoS, b) TV-show scene was ment to be like in book, but they fucked it up, because they are no really good showrunners and scriptwriters to begin with...

Cersei has a POV she never thinks how Jaime raped her but she thinks Robert did so she at least doesn't feel she was raped by Jaime in the books.

[Rhaegar The Rocker]

All of you are biased cause you read the books and read the interviews read any unsullied post or ask any casual watcher they all think it was rape. Also people are upset because in the books there are at least 3 instance that show how Jaime is against rape and having him rape her was way out of character.

Pretty sure most here would agree that its out of character for Jamie. All you have to do is look at the 60 page locked thread to see that. The above posts are more about analyzing the director/writers intent with the scene.

Did they mean for the scene to be closer to the book and the direction failed? Or did they in fact just want a rape scene?

As others mentioned in the locked thread, what worries me most is that if it was rape, will Jamie and Cersei continue on like nothing happened? Is that scene literally just for shock value? Who knows, but it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

It feels like the further we get, the more deviation there is from the source material. Most likely due to the butterfly effect GRRM speaks of. I was more upset about this scene yesterday, but after taking some time to think about it, I think things can still pan out in a way that book fans will be satisfied. Although, I have been wrong before!

[raj34]

Has everybody already seen the interview with the director of the episode on vulture.com?

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

Here's an excerpt:

You say it “becomes consensual by the end.” I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, “It’s not right, it’s not right,” and Jaime on top of her saying, “I don’t care. I don’t care.” It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?
It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

[raj34]

Pretty sure most here would agree that its out of character for Jamie. All you have to do is look at the 60 page locked thread to see that. The above posts are more about analyzing the director/writers intent with the scene.

Did they mean for the scene to be closer to the book and the direction failed? Or did they in fact just want a rape scene?

As others mentioned in the locked thread, what worries me most is that if it was rape, will Jamie and Cersei continue on like nothing happened? Is that scene literally just for shock value? Who knows, but it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Yes, that is the important question.

Was it intended as a rape by the director and the showrunners, or did they just monumentally screw up? So far, we're getting mixed signals.

[Chebyshov]

All of you are biased cause you read the books and read the interviews read any unsullied post or ask any casual watcher they all think it was rape. Also people are upset because in the books there are at least 3 instance that show how Jaime is against rape and having him rape her was way out of character.

Which is why the disturbingly violent nature of his relationship with Cersei culminating in sexual assault (both in the books and on film) is so poignant and distressing. In both cases they're a low moment for Jaime. While the tone of it may be different in the books vs. the show (a relapse upon being back vs. a rage-filled attack fueled by self-loathing), it is still supposed to be a very dark moment for Jaime, emphasized by its location occurring on Joffrey's bier.

Cersei has a POV she never thinks how Jaime raped her but she thinks Robert did so she at least doesn't feel she was raped by Jaime in the books.

Which I think speaks to just how messed up their relationship is, and why it's such a corrosive influence on Jaime. To be clear, I'm in no way defending Jaime's actions or insinuating that he's the victim here. Just explaining the dynamics.

Also I'm not sure where this is in the book. There's a line where she thinks about how sex had only been good with Jaime, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you source it, please?

However, having said that, if a woman is saying, "no" "stop" while she's forcibly pulling her "rapist" towards herself and passionately kissing him, I really have to make the judgement call that those actions matter.

As I said, I'm not interested in arguing what is and isn't rape. I'm glad you understand women don't "ask to be raped," but I would hope that you could understand a women voicing protest is where the line is drawn. This happens in both the books and the show, which is why I say they're both rape. And her "getting into it" is both a troubling dynamic within the relationship as well as a dangerous standard to set for the "judgement call" of what is and isn't rape. This isn't your call, and when a woman says "no," it's "no."

[raj34]

As I said, I'm not interested in arguing what is and isn't rape. I'm glad you understand women don't "ask to be raped," but I would hope that you could understand a women voicing protest is where the line is drawn. This happens in both the books and the show, which is why I say they're both rape. And her "getting into it" is both a troubling dynamic within the relationship as well as a dangerous standard to set for the "judgement call" of what is and isn't rape. This isn't your call, and when a woman says "no," it's "no."

That's a good point. Where exactly do you draw the line between consensual and sexual assault? In the book, Cersei initially protests, but once Jaime had her partially undressed, she gives in. Is that fine?

[Chebyshov]

That's a good point. Where exactly do you draw the line between consensual and sexual assault? In the book, Cersei initially protests, but once Jaime had her partially undressed, she gives in. Is that fine?

As I said earlier (in the text you quoted, actually), I view both scenes as rape. It's certainly an issue with its complexities, which is why I think solidly defining rape is problematic, but Cersei voicing protests in both cases are why I view both scenes as instances of sexual assault.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Yes, that is the important question.

Was it intended as a rape by the director and the showrunners, or did they just monumentally screw up? So far, we're getting mixed signals.

I go with screw up.

They wanted a rough scene and for they just did not think enough to give some yes to clarify consent.

They are not going to treat it as a rape on the

show since it was not meant to be. The fall out from that is to be seen.

[Moët]

Has everybody already seen the interview with the director of the episode on vulture.com?

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

Here's an excerpt:

You say it “becomes consensual by the end.” I rewatched the scene this morning, and it ends with Cersei saying, “It’s not right, it’s not right,” and Jaime on top of her saying, “I don’t care. I don’t care.” It leaves some room for debate. Were you involved with cutting the scene? Was there a longer version of the scene that might have read more like they were both consenting?

It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

This. I'm not blind, nor was I hallucinating. Cercei's actions matter.