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[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]


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My mind wandered to a passage from HST:s Hells Angels:





Weird as it seems, as this gang of costumed hoodlums converged on Monterey that morning they were on the verge of


"making it big," as the showbiz people say, and they would owe most of their success to a curious

rape mania that rides on the shoulder of American journalism like some jeering, masturbating raven.

Nothing grabs an editor's eye like a good rape.



Why wasn't it problematic for Sansa being "almost raped" in the riot? Or Brienne?



And on to a different, but to me equally disturbing trend, why isn't anyone upset by Ramsay hunting a girl with dogs? Is it OK because he had a female side-kick?


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My mind wandered to a passage from HST:s Hells Angels:

Why wasn't it problematic for Sansa being "almost raped" in the riot? Or Brienne?

And on to a different, but to me equally disturbing trend, why isn't anyone upset by Ramsay hunting a girl with dogs? Is it OK because he had a female side-kick?

I think most here are not upset by the depiction of rape, they're upset because it seemed out of character for Jamie.

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The problem with the Cersei was into it arguments is that it claims it wants nuance but ignores the fact that she could have been saying no, but still she is being kissed by someone she loves and who she misses. People can say no to sex and still be attracted or tempted by the person. Also, This wasn't a scene where seh said no, went back for it and didn't say no again. The last show was her saying no and him saying he didn't care as he pushed her to the floor. A rape is any sex that is coerced. It doesn't have to be fought against 100% of the time. If her yes cancels out her no then doesn't her no cancel out her yes? You are choosing to say that the signs that she was into it out weight the no, others do not believe that.



Also I don't know how anyone saw anything. That scene was so dark and they had so many items of clothing on the only clear message I felt we got about the scene was their voices, which specifically were Cersei being against it and Jamie not caring


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The problem with the Cersei was into it arguments is that it claims it wants nuance but ignores the fact that she could have been saying no, but still she is being kissed by someone she loves and who she misses. People can say no to sex and still be attracted or tempted by the person. Also, This wasn't a scene where seh said no, went back for it and didn't say no again. The last show was her saying no and him saying he didn't care as he pushed her to the floor. A rape is any sex that is coerced. It doesn't have to be fought against 100% of the time. If her yes cancels out her no then doesn't her no cancel out her yes? You are choosing to say that the signs that she was into it out weight the no, others do not believe that.

Also I don't know how anyone saw anything. That scene was so dark and they had so many items of clothing on the only clear message I felt we got about the scene was their voices, which specifically were Cersei being against it and Jamie not caring

I think the fundamental difference people are having is interpretation of what Cersei said, while disregarding what Cersei did.

"Not here", "stop, it isn't right", are saying no to location and timing, not sex. Some people think she's saying no to having sex with Jamie, not having sex with Jamie HERE. I understood it to be the latter because Cersei was acting very much into Jamie (grabbing and kissing him) as she was saying it.

Saying no to logistics isn't saying no to sex, which is why for many people it doesn't play as a rape.

If a person doesn't want to have sex, why would they actively be encouraging their partner to have sex by grabbing them, kissing them, and wrapping their legs around them? That is the part no one has been able to explain.

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I think the fundamental difference people are having is interpretation of what Cersei said, while disregarding what Cersei did.

"Not here", "stop, it isn't right", are saying no to location and timing, not sex. Some people think she's saying no to having sex with Jamie, not having sex with Jamie HERE. I understood it to be the latter because Cersei was acting very much into Jamie (grabbing and kissing him) as she was saying it.

Saying no to logistics isn't saying no to sex, which is why for many people it doesn't play as a rape.

If a person doesn't want to have sex, why would they actively be encouraging their partner to have sex by grabbing them, kissing them, and wrapping their legs around them? That is the part no one has been able to explain.

This is how I read the scene in the book, but for some reason the show scene came across completely different upon my first viewing. This is however, why I need to watch it again.

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My short answer for the OP of the thread? Why this scene?



Well, as someone put it in one of the other threads, I think it's because the idea of Jaime raping someone, anyone, is about as out of character as it would have been to have Ned not only OK the assassination of Dany, but to offer to do so himself, without the benefit of that notion of hearing the condemned's last words as a bonus option.



That, and, I think it is a compelation of all the wrongs in the show and in this particular episode itself. Adding it all up, so to speak, along with something that seemingly OOC.

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My short answer for the OP of the thread? Why this scene?

Well, as someone put it in one of the other threads, I think it's because the idea of Jaime raping someone, anyone, is about as out of character as it would have been to have Ned not only OK the assassination of Dany, but to offer to do so himself, without the benefit of that notion of hearing the condemned's last words as a bonus option.

That, and, I think it is a compelation of all the wrongs in the show and in this particular episode itself. Adding it all up, so to speak, along with something that seemingly OOC.

I'd disagree that it was OOC, because I think it really shows what a destructive and corrosive effect Cersei/their relationship has on Jaime, which is consistent with the books (as is the rape). I mentioned this on the second page as well. In fact, Show!Jaime is almost committing a violent act against himself, or rather his past self in disgust/self-loathing as he's raping Cersei (not that it's excusable or justified).

However, I do see why it seems so jarring for just the show, when Jaime has been portrayed in an overly good light, and without getting is really conflicted inner monologue, it could seem out of place for some.

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The problem is people are romanticizing the scene in the books (and the JaimexCersei relationship too, may I add) too much for my taste, declaring it to be beautiful and wonderful just the way it was.



Rather, turning it into a rape in the show worsens the situation by a lot, but the original scene was also downright disgusting and horrible. Wake up people, JaimexCersei is not sunshine and rainbows.


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Been reading all the social media about the last episode, and I don't understand why THIS is the change that people are not okay with. I watch the show only for those rare occasions where I can watch and enjoy a scene from the book. Obviously, I am usually disappointed. So after 2 years of D&D making a complete mess of things, why is THIS instance of them butchering the story such a big deal? Just because it has to do with rape? In the book, the scene becomes consensual. So if this scene in the show is rape, why doesn't she scream out as loud as she can? Why doesn't she punch and kick? To me, this was just POOR representation of the book, and not the biggest change ever. Furthermore, it goes all with most of the changes D&D make....to add shock value! So why care so much now?

Who cares if Irri and Jhiqui are dead right?

Who cares if Missandei is suppose to be 10, and instead is a woman with voluptuous breasts?

Who cares if they COMPLETELY ruin the House of the Undying?

Why have Arya kill the Tickler when she can kill Poliver instead?

Why bother having Barristan kill the Titans Bastard? Why put that incredibly memorable scene in the show?

Strong Belwass? Who?

How are they going to have Dany find out Jorrah betrayed her? Not well!

How will Arya leave the Hound when he is not injured in the fight at the Inn? NO REASON TO CHANGE IT!

Why do I have to watch Oberyn grab a handful of some guys junk EVERY EPISODE!!!! One little teeny line about RUMORS that Oberyn has had sex with everyone, and D&D run like the wind with it! It adds NOTHING to show. NOTHING! And yet its there...every episode....why? Shock value!

Who cares if they've COMPLETELY annihilated the Shaetrayal by giving her the laughable scorned lover motive! Making it Tryion's own fault! REALLY!

I could go on and on. So I ask again....why is THIS scene, after all of the ridiculous and meaningless changes they've made so far, why is this the one everyone is making such a big deal about?

Because pretty nothing you mention fundamentally alters a character like Jamie raping Cersei. I mean is Arya's character altered because she killed Polliver instead of the Tickler? Is Oberyn doing anything utterly against his character by grabbing another man's junk?

You gave only two examples of big alterations to characters. Missiandei is older and essentially taking over Irri and Jhiqui's roles. But ultimately, there is nothing Show!Missiandei is doing that book version would never do (except possibly romantic/sex stuff, but this is hardly a change in character since we have no reason to believe Book!Missiandei wouldn't be when she's older).

The other is Shae. Yeah, huge alteration. But the difference is Show!Shae is a lot more enjoyable than Book!Shae. So, people accept that easier. It's not like they are taking a popular character and having commit one of the horrible acts she would not do. Also, considering Tyrion is one of the few characters constantly getting whitewashed, I'm guessing Shae's betrayal will be even worse on the show than the books.

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As I said earlier (in the text you quoted, actually), I view both scenes as rape. It's certainly an issue with its complexities, which is why I think solidly defining rape is problematic, but Cersei voicing protests in both cases are why I view both scenes as instances of sexual assault.

I'm a bit curious. Would you say Jaime was raping/sexually assaulting Cersei in winterfell too? Because Jaime is pretty much all over her despite telling him to stop. Starting to think this is just another aspect of their fucked up relationship.

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Cersei has a POV she never thinks how Jaime raped her but she thinks Robert did so she at least doesn't feel she was raped by Jaime in the books.

Agreed. Cersei's initial objections in the book were very clearly about where they were and that they might get caught. She says no because of the septons, the gods, their father etc. Her actions in the book showing her desire for Jaime (kissed till she moaned, consenting and then guiding him in, playing with his hair, etc) did not come across in the show clearly like they did in the book. Thus most of us can see in the book that despite her initial objections to having sex in the Sept, she very clearly wanted to have sex with Jaime and very much desired him. We also know that Jaime was not angry with her nor was he trying to cause her harm because we are in his head. We also know that afterwards neither Cersei nor Jaime considered it rape or a power play.

The show does not dance this line at all. She clearly says stop it over and over even while he is thrusting into her. Say what you want about body lang, but Cersei's desire for Jaime is not made clear enough.

I feel that the producer/writers/directors just messed this one up (after a night thinking about it). Cersie's initial objections were never qualified, her desire for Jaime was never demonstrated strongly, Jaime sure looks angry and is not trying to make love to her or comfort her, and this all adds up to the viewers feeling that Cersei got 100% raped (no gray area). I never got that feeling reading the books, and neither did it occur to the characters.

Also, I am not upset that a rape was done on TV, just what it does to Jaime's arc which is one of the most fascinating in the series

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I'd disagree that it was OOC, because I think it really shows what a destructive and corrosive effect Cersei/their relationship has on Jaime, which is consistent with the books (as is the rape). I mentioned this on the second page as well. In fact, Show!Jaime is almost committing a violent act against himself, or rather his past self in disgust/self-loathing as he's raping Cersei (not that it's excusable or justified).

However, I do see why it seems so jarring for just the show, when Jaime has been portrayed in an overly good light, and without getting is really conflicted inner monologue, it could seem out of place for some.

I don't need or expect someone to agree with me. For me, the book was clear it wasn't rape, people who have sex with each other for years and years can have a sexual encounter that perhaps the some of the world won't understand. I'm going with the GRRM quote about the book content, too, and most of the book encounter was about two people who hadn't seen each other in a long time, much different from what was aired on the show. A dysfunctional relationship, sex included, doesn't necessarily equal rape. I spent all day on this yesterday and already regret the fact I posted here on this thread today. That doesn't change my opinion, though. I'm just not devoting more time to this today.

But, it's not about the show Jaime at all for me, and no, he hasn't been portrayed in an overly good light. That cousin killing is also something he wouldn't do. Be that as it may, I don't need or want someone to always agree with me, it IS fiction and hopefully, just a polite exchange of ideas on a fictional story and characters.

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I posted this on the Winter Is Coming website under Nikolaj's interview and wondered what thoughts people might have about it.




Wow what a lightening rod of a scene! My first reactions to this scene were silence, sadness, anger, and confusion, as I am a huge Jaime fan. I read all the books, and it is clear to me in the book, at least from Jamie’s POV, that this was a consensual act, an act of reconnection. After reading Martin’s comments above, it does make sense why the two are different, given the set ups. And yes, although as Nikolaj has stated that the scene was not intended to be an all out rape, I definitely perceived it this way. So for the purposes of this entry, that is the framework I am coming from. I do not think though, whether the incident is interpreted as a rape or not changes how I conceptualize this scene in terms of Jaime’s character development.


After getting some space from this, I tried to sort through what is the form and function of this interaction for Jaime in the series. I am a clinical psychologist by trade, and specialize in trauma, so I view GOT and its characters through this lens.


I have only watched the scene once, and read the books once. Rape is about power and control, as stated several times in this thread, not about sex/intimacy. I think in this scene we finally have the gritty truth about the nature of Jaime’s and Cersai’s relationship, and Jaime states this “Why have the Gods made me love such a hateful woman.” This is a huge realization for Jaime that he acknowledges that the “love” relationship he has with his sister is in actuality based on his powerlessness over his need and dependency for her. He accepts the truth of this at this point I believe only because he has a template of how kind and caring a woman can be in his experience with Brienne. Yet, still this knowledge can not change his ultimate action to reconnect again with Cersai, and then further to rape her- which is very tragic for Jaime. Never underestimate the power of familiar.


The other point is that both Jaime and Cersai are trauma survivors, from the death of their mother, Cersai’s rapes by Robert, and Jaime’s loss of his hand. So likely from the very beginning of their relationship they may have been attempting to comfort themselves from the loss of their mother via their sexual relationship with each other, though this is difficult to definitively know. From the very beginning then, their relationship is fraught with power and control issues, and attempts to gain mastery over trauma and loss, as well as comfort each other in the pain of that loss.


This rape scene for Jaime I see in this light and Nikolaj has said that this scene for Jaime is about his powerlessness. Yes, I agree with the above comment by the Criminal Justice worker that perpetrators view rape in this light. Perpetrators are also sometimes trauma victims, as is the case with Jaime.


In coming back to Kings Landing, Jaime realizes all he has lost, including his masculinity, status, and intimacy. It is in this one moment with Cersai that he is trying to obtain mastery over a life where he ultimately has had very little power due to his father and Cersai’s manipulation of him over the course of his entire life. There is some foreshadowing of Jaime’s attempts to gain power in his family in his interaction with Tywin when his father gives him Oathkeeper. In a twisted way, in raping Cersai he can temporarily gain the masculinity and intimacy back.



In coming back to Kings Landing, Jaime realizes all he has lost, including his masculinity, status, and intimacy. It is in this one moment with Cersai that he is trying to obtain mastery over a life where he ultimately has had very little power due to his father and Cersai’s manipulation of him over the course of his entire life. There is some foreshadowing of Jaime’s attempts to gain power in his family in his interaction with Tywin when his father gives him Oathkeeper. In a twisted way, in raping Cersai he can temporarily gain the masculinity and intimacy back.


What is ironic though, is that he is quite conflicted based on his above comment on the “gods making him love a hateful woman” in that he needs to connect with her but he also wants to disconnect from her. The rape he performs on Cersai accomplishes both of these goals, he can connect to her but disconnect from her simultaneously. The rape also becomes a container for the rage and shame he feels about his own identity (Oathbreaker, Kingslayer, etc), although he tries to numb his own feelings by saying “I don’t care.”


Finally, this scene seems to bring forth again the theme of Jaime’s loss of his ideals in the broader context of his life. Even his beliefs about rape can be on the table to be compromised in the “right” moment. Furthermore, Cersai’s order to kill his own brother challenges his own ideals about his love and loyalty to his family, a core character ideal for Jaime. We will see what becomes of this.


So although I do not like the scene at all, as I am a Jaime fan, it does fit with his character development as I understand it from reading the books and the series. The difference is that the series seems to be pushing the issue of Jaime becoming a tragic figure more quickly.


I remain a Jaime fan because NIkolaj’s portrayal is artful and the complexity of this character is fascinating. I do hope it all ends well for Jaime.


I welcome any comments, just my take on things.


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My reading of the books gave me a clear impression that Cersei and Jaime's sexual relationship often had the "push-pull", "no-means-yes" aspect to it. I don't like that personally, but I clearly read it that way, and even though she says no, it's obviously consensual. The only sexual scenes that are given to us have this element in them, and gives me the impression that Cersei likes that dominance from Jaime and always plays that "game".



I feel like the show tried to display that (with Cersei kissing back and such) but simply failed to make it clear enough. But yeah, it's much more rape-y and forceful and angry than in the book, but I actually felt that story-wise, it was consistent with the strained relationship that the Show has written due to Jaime being back early and Cersei not wanting him. I don't feel it ruins Jaime character entirely. I think it shows him being very angry, frustrated and desperate, combined with him playing their game as usual. That combination made it look like rape. And yes, the writer who did the scene made the mistake of not adding some dialog that could have helped if he truly had intended for it to be consensual.


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I'm a bit curious. Would you say Jaime was raping/sexually assaulting Cersei in winterfell too? Because Jaime is pretty much all over her despite telling him to stop. Starting to think this is just another aspect of their fucked up relationship.

I don't think we have enough information to really judge that scene. Bran does overhear her saying "stop it" and "please," but for all we know Jaime was trying to do something specific she didn't like. They do seem to be in throes of passion during that scene, but we are also seeing at from the vantage point of a seven-year-old who thought they were wrestling.

You bring up a good point though! The fact that discomfort and assault is standard practice for them really speaks to just how fucked up their relationship is. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, Cersei doesn't view their encounter in the sept was rape, and perhaps it's only her opinion that counts here. But because she is a character in a book and a show, I think we should be able to have this conversation.

Also one thing I've been meaning to say to everyone in this thread is that if it were you, or your daughter, or any other loved one in Cersei's position, I think you'd want both Book!Jaime and Show!Jaime to listen to her and take her objections seriously. Whatever label we want to attach to it, Jaime's actions in both cases were not justified, and deeply messed up.

<snip>

I don't need or want someone to always agree with me, it IS fiction and hopefully, just a polite exchange of ideas on a fictional story and characters.

I certainly see where everyone's coming from, and it is a difficult and ambiguous issue to sort out. I fall on one side of it, and I'm still working through my feelings, even after talking about it ad nauseam for 48 hours. I definitely can get on board with the call to civility!

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I really don't see the argument that the book scene was rape. It was rough and disgusting, but it was consensual. Cersei never says she doesn't want to have sex, she says they shouldn't do it because they're in a public place, their father is about, and because they're in a holy place. She initiates the intimacy in the first place. At the end she was very enthusiastic. Not 'her body reacted with arousal' enthusiasm, but 'telling her lover that he is home and for him to continue' enthusiasm. It was forceful, not forced.



Its important to note this is Jaime and Cersei as well. Two people who have apparently been having a continuous hidden sexual relationship. Its doubtful this is the first time one of them has said "its too risky," or "not here." This could very likely be par for the course for them. Cersei never recalls this scene as rape iirc.



The show scene is rape. Its done out of anger and self-loathing. Cersei never gives consent. She clearly says no repeatedly.


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The problem with the Cersei was into it arguments is that it claims it wants nuance but ignores the fact that she could have been saying no, but still she is being kissed by someone she loves and who she misses. People can say no to sex and still be attracted or tempted by the person. Also, This wasn't a scene where seh said no, went back for it and didn't say no again. The last show was her saying no and him saying he didn't care as he pushed her to the floor. A rape is any sex that is coerced. It doesn't have to be fought against 100% of the time. If her yes cancels out her no then doesn't her no cancel out her yes? You are choosing to say that the signs that she was into it out weight the no, others do not believe that.

Also I don't know how anyone saw anything. That scene was so dark and they had so many items of clothing on the only clear message I felt we got about the scene was their voices, which specifically were Cersei being against it and Jamie not caring

That is true. But let's say a husband wants to have sex before the kids get home but the wife does not want to because they may come home a little early and they will get caught, but she is ok with kissing. The husband makes out with her while massaging her and continues to say hey, we can do this before they get home, it will be exciting. She is tempted but still feels the risk of it is too high and says no again. They continue to make out (which she does not fight and is enjoying) and things are getting hotter. He asks again, and she says, "Ok take me, take me now, but make it quick" and they have sex.

Is this rape, because she said no at first and he continued to pursue? (and clearly this is not what happened in the show)

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