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[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]


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What is this, a "silent majority" argument? You sound like a US Republican in November 2012 claiming that all the polls that show Obama winning are "skewed" because clearly the pollsters are only talking to people who want Obama in office, not a representative sample. In your "unskewed" view, anyone who's talking about this issue is obviously pushing an agenda, and there are way more people who are not speaking up who conveniently all agree with you? :rofl: Don't stop believing, dude.

If i was arguing about people having "agendas", i would state it. Trust me.

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The internet has a way of blowing every controversy out of proportion. I'm not denying that the majority's first impression (like mine) was rape, and that the final cut of the scene failed to set the mood the directors intended. What i find preposterous is that people are reacting towards those who conclude (after thoughtful reflection) that it was not rape by calling names and being extremely judgmental. This is a very twisted relationship between twisted individuals (especially Cersei), and it's wrong to assume that reading the scene as "not rape" is equivalent to condoning actual rape in the real world and failing to recognize women's boundaries.

Benioff says it was rape, Graves said it was rape (and then changed his mind or something...just...ugh.) So as for the "mood" they intended to set, it seems pretty clear it was rape.

My take on it is that after they sent out the screeners and started getting feedback from the reviewers, they found that any reviewers who were also book fans had the reaction, "WTF? Why is Jaime a rapist now??" This caused Graves to unwisely try to backtrack by claiming that Jaime wasn't actually a rapist because, uh, Cersei, uh, eventually consented (post rape consent?) or some garbage. This, of course, just made things worse.

They'd have been better off if they'd just said, "Oh, yeah, we decided to make it rape instead of consensual, and here's our thinking on why it works better this way....blah blah blah." Then they'd just be facing angry mutterings from book readers about Show Jaime no longer being recognizably the same as Book Jaime, plus some queries as to why, exactly, they feel like ASOIAF actually needs even more rape than GRRM already put into it. I think that's a very valid question to ask -- why have Drogo rape Dany? Why have Jaime rape Cersei? Why make that call? Don't things suck enough for the women of Westeros already?

But throw in that firecracker of "It started out as rape but then she began to enjoy it!" and...well... KABOOM! :angry2: :bang: :ack: :tantrum: :shocked: :thumbsdown:

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That's a good point. Where exactly do you draw the line between consensual and sexual assault? In the book, Cersei initially protests, but once Jaime had her partially undressed, she gives in. Is that fine?

It was coercive rape in the book. She only consented to get it over with.

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Benioff says it was rape, Graves said it was rape (and then changed his mind or something...just...ugh.) So as for the "mood" they intended to set, it seems pretty clear it was rape.

My take on it is that after they sent out the screeners and started getting feedback from the reviewers, they found that any reviewers who were also book fans had the reaction, "WTF? Why is Jaime a rapist now??" This caused Graves to unwisely try to backtrack by claiming that Jaime wasn't actually a rapist because, uh, Cersei, uh, eventually consented (post rape consent?) or some garbage. This, of course, just made things worse.

They'd have been better off if they'd just said, "Oh, yeah, we decided to make it rape instead of consensual, and here's our thinking on why it works better this way....blah blah blah." Then they'd just be facing angry mutterings from book readers about Show Jaime no longer being recognizably the same as Book Jaime, plus some queries as to why, exactly, they feel like ASOIAF actually needs even more rape than GRRM already put into it. I think that's a very valid question to ask -- why have Drogo rape Dany? Why have Jaime rape Cersei? Why make that call? Don't things suck enough for the women of Westeros already?

But throw in that firecracker of "It started out as rape but then she began to enjoy it!" and...well... KABOOM! :angry2: :bang: :ack: :tantrum: :shocked: :thumbsdown:

I'd like to see the original interview where Alex Graves said it was rape. Link?

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Yeah i figured as much, but i really dont think i want him back for season 5 if he mishandles material. I suppose it could be worse. He could be Michael Bay. D:

Also the Silent Majority has an opinion. Ive heard it.

Graves directed episode 3.04 which seemed to be well received, and he directed a number of The West Wing's better episodes - including the first season Christmas special which NBC has re-aired about 7 million times. It's hard to figure what went wrong, but I think there's more to it than "the director is a hack".

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Graves directed episode 3.04 which seemed to be well received, and he directed a number of The West Wing's better episodes - including the first season Christmas special which NBC has re-aired about 7 million times. It's hard to figure what went wrong, but I think there's more to it than "the director is a hack".

Also 3.5 Kissed by Fire and 4.2 The Lion and the Rose.

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Here's a radical theory: A lot of you are extremely frustrated because Jamie spent all of season 3 redeeming himself from that terrible act he committed in season 1. If Jamie raped his sister than you all are right his character has been set back. So maybe it's D&D giving a big middle finger to the book readers and trying to say real life isn't always going to entail a straight road to redemption. Perhaps they felt he was becoming good too fast and they decided he needed to have a relapse of evil in the most monstrous way possible. Or maybe it was just a representation of how woman are treated in Westeros. Who knows.

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The way I see it, Jaime is behaving like a rapist in both the book and the show. Does the fact that Cersei eventually gives in excuse Jaime's rapacious behavior prior to that moment? If you read the scene she's pleading with him and he's not hearing her, I don't think he would have stopped if she didn't give consent. I think the big difference is not Jaime, but Cersei's behavior. Cersei is more of a three dimensional character in the show and acts more like a realistic human being, rather than the cartoonish psychopath from the books.


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This is from AV Club:





However, as Rolling Stone’s Sean T. Collins points out (via The Washington Post), Benioff’s commentary for HBO’sbehind-the-scenes featurette for “Breaker Of Chains” at least seems to acknowledge that it’s rape:







Sounds like rape to me.



I think the scene was written as a rape scene, that was the initial intention as obvious by the words used is the scene, but then sometime before shooting they decided to take it more in the book's direction where she eventually consents. However, the director fucked up in that he believed that filming her holding on to the table with one hand while pushing him away with the other and saying "don't" while sobbing means consent. And that is troubling!



The fact that neither the writers or director felt it necessary to add verbal consent to the scene if frelling troubling!! That the director thinks that cutting away to her holding on to a table while we hear her saying "don't!" represents consent is frelling troubling!



And speaking from a storytelling POV, the fact that they found it logical to have a character who lost his hand in protecting another character from rape, commit rape himself, is frelling idiotic.



On all levels this scene was a F*** up!


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But in the books, Jaime was behaving like a rapist. Cersei ultimately gave consent, but he was still forcing himself onto her prior to that moment.

I see her consenting in the books both verbally and physically, as proof we later have her POV and not once does she reflect on Jaime as one who took her by force.

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This is from AV Club:

Sounds like rape to me.

I think the scene was written as a rape scene, that was the initial intention as obvious by the words used is the scene, but then sometime before shooting they decided to take it more in the book's direction where she eventually consents. However, the director fucked up in that he believed that filming her holding on to the table with one hand while pushing him away with the other and saying "don't" while sobbing means consent. And that is troubling!

The fact that neither the writers or director felt it necessary to add verbal consent to the scene if frelling troubling!! That the director thinks that cutting away to her holding on to a table while we hear her saying "don't!" represents consent is frelling troubling!

And speaking from a storytelling POV, the fact that they found it logical to have a character who lost his hand in protecting another character from rape, commit rape himself, is frelling idiotic.

On all levels this scene was a F*** up!

I don't think it's really idiotic. Especially after reading the psychologist's post #53. Bad people trying to redeem themselves slip up all the time.

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I don't think it's really idiotic. Especially after reading the psychologist's post #53. Bad people trying to redeem themselves slip up all the time.

Rape is not a frelling slip up!! Rape is repulsive to Jaime. Jaime, the man who lived his entire life having known only one woman, is not a man that uses sex as an expression of anything but love! It's not an expression of power to him, it's not a physical desire that he submits to (otherwise he would have shared his bed with another woman by now". His entire existence he has equated sex with love and therefor only with Cersie.

The scene in the sept in the books was an expression of how much he loved and missed his sister/lover. The sept scene in the show is an expression of anger and a need to dominate Cersie. That's not Jaime. Sex to him was never a weapon or a tool. With all due respect to the psychologist you reference, but he is wrong, imo.

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